Are there really people who believe baptism with water is necessary for being born again?

JohannaSK

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Are there any Bible verses that say one must be baptized in order to be born again from above, from the Spirit of God, and therefore saved?

What about the fact that there are many people (also have been in my family) who were water-baptized as a baby, but who lived through their lives into adulthood and died without ever declaring and professing that Jesus is their Lord (Romans 10: 9-10)? Are they all lying about never having been a Christian?

What about the man who repented while hanging on the cross alongside Jesus, and who died without being baptized with water, but to whom Jesus promised salvation in paradise?

What about people in general who have become a Christian, but because of their circumstances aren't able or allowed to be baptized – are they not considered born again?

Is there a theology that claims this? Really?
 

RDKirk

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Are there any Bible verses that say one must be baptized in order to be born again from above, from the Spirit of God, and therefore saved?

What about the fact that there are many people (also have been in my family) who were water-baptized as a baby, but who lived through their lives into adulthood and died without ever declaring and professing that Jesus is their Lord (Romans 10: 9-10)? Are they all lying about never having been a Christian?

What about the man who repented while hanging on the cross alongside Jesus, and who died without being baptized with water, but to whom Jesus promised salvation in paradise?

What about people in general who have become a Christian, but because of their circumstances aren't able or allowed to be baptized – are they not considered born again?

Is there a theology that claims this? Really?

I have spoken to people who believe that if you get hit by a bus on your way to your baptism, you will go to hell.

I don't think scripture ultimately supports that, but of course they recite the passages that call for baptism.
 
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Winken

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To answer your initial question, No.

Immersion or sprinkling in water was a mandatory Jewish ritual, preparing one to meet the promised Messiah.

Baptism by / through the Holy Spirit is received instantly upon one's confession of Faith in Jesus as Savior (Romans 10:8-13, confirmed in Romans 8:1), no water involved. Water for the Christian is not a requirement.

HOWEVER, if one desires to be immersed in or sprinkled by water then, yes, do it! For some it is an "act of obedience." For some it is a public profession of that Faith which has already been demonstrated through the confession in Romans 10:8-13.

OK, now I'm moving my chair back about 30 feet from the monitor. Go for it!
 
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thecolorsblend

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Are there any Bible verses that say one must be baptized in order to be born again from above, from the Spirit of God, and therefore saved?
Besides John 3, you mean?

What about the fact that there are many people (also have been in my family) who were water-baptized as a baby, but who lived through their lives into adulthood and died without ever declaring and professing that Jesus is their Lord (Romans 10: 9-10)? Are they all lying about never having been a Christian?
If they haven't been confirmed, I don't know if I'd go so far as to claim they're "lying" but as adults they need to confirm the promises made by their parents when they were infants.

What about the man who repented while hanging on the cross alongside Jesus, and who died without being baptized with water, but to whom Jesus promised salvation in paradise?
I can't speak for anybody else but my Church teaches that water baptism is the ordinary means for salvation. From the Catechism...

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"69 member of Christ and co-heir with him,70 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving,31 which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity "which covers a multitude of sins."
There's more but that's a general idea of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding baptism.

As to the thief on the cross...

What about people in general who have become a Christian, but because of their circumstances aren't able or allowed to be baptized – are they not considered born again?
People in this situation (like the thief on the cross) are unable to be baptized. But if they would be baptized given the chance, my Church teaches they have the baptism of desire. The thief on the cross is believed to have received the baptism of desire. The exception being made in those cases doesn't mitigate the fact that baptism is the ordinary means for salvation.

The objection to baptism mystifies me, tbh. If you believe baptism to be optional, why not do it? Seems like the safer idea because if baptism turns out to be mandatory, you'll be okay. But if you knowingly rejected baptism even though it is required... oops! I mean, a typical reply to my point is "Well, I just don't believe that". Boy I sure hope you don't end up being proved wrong. That would really suck.

Is there a theology that claims this?
Yes.

Really really.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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To answer the question in the title, yes there are.

JohannaSK said:
Are there any Bible verses that say one must be baptized in order to be born again from above, from the Spirit of God, and therefore saved?
I have at least five translations of the Bible and a Tanakh (Jewish scriptures); none of them have such a verse.

JohannaSK said:
What about the fact that there are many people (also have been in my family) who were water-baptized as a baby, but who lived through their lives into adulthood and died without ever declaring and professing that Jesus is their Lord (Romans 10: 9-10)? Are they all lying about never having been a Christian?
That is a hard question; probably as the answer is pretty rough.

Romans 10:9-10 is pretty specific. Without any further information and with the knowledge that God doesn't fill me in on every conversation He's ever had with anyone else, I'd have to say that group of people don't qualify. Not sure about what they might be lying, but I don't think - as qualified - they are Christians in the meaning of Romans 10:9-10.

Please do not think that makes me happy to relate.

JohannaSK said:
What about the man who repented while hanging on the cross alongside Jesus, and who died without being baptized with water, but to whom Jesus promised salvation in paradise?
Without going into detail, those who believe water baptism is required have an excuse for him. I don't agree with it, but there is an official excuse for that faction.

JohannaSK said:
What about people in general who have become a Christian, but because of their circumstances aren't able or allowed to be baptized – are they not considered born again?
They are qualified IF they qualify under Romans 10:9-10. At least for those of us who do not buy into the 'must be water baptized' theory.

JohannaSK said:
Is there a theology that claims this? Really?
Yes. You mentioned one of the clearest in Romans 10. Without doing a search, there are a number of passages in the New Testament stating so. The third chapter of John's Gospel comes to mind. (Baptism not mentioned.) There are more than that but I'm too lazy to look them all up.
 
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Winken

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To answer the question in the title, yes there are.

I have at least five translations of the Bible and a Tanakh (Jewish scriptures); none of them have such a verse.

That is a hard question; probably as the answer is pretty rough.

Romans 10:9-10 is pretty specific. Without any further information and with the knowledge that God doesn't fill me in on every conversation He's ever had with anyone else, I'd have to say that group of people don't qualify. Not sure about what they might be lying, but I don't think - as qualified - they are Christians in the meaning of Romans 10:9-10.

Please do not think that makes me happy to relate.

Without going into detail, those who believe water baptism is required have an excuse for him. I don't agree with it, but there is an official excuse for that faction.

They are qualified IF they qualify under Romans 10:9-10. At least for those of us who do not buy into the 'must be water baptized' theory.

Yes. You mentioned one of the clearest in Romans 10. Without doing a search, there are a number of passages in the New Testament stating so. The third chapter of John's Gospel comes to mind. (Baptism not mentioned.) There are more than that but I'm too lazy to look them all up.

I'm certain the original question in the OP was referring to immersion in water. With that in mind, you may want to reconstruct your response! :holy:
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Winken said:
I'm certain the original question in the OP was referring to immersion in water. With that in mind, you may want to reconstruct your response! :holy:
Thanks for the thought, but I'll let it stand.
 
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JohannaSK

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To answer the question in the title, yes there are.

I have at least five translations of the Bible and a Tanakh (Jewish scriptures); none of them have such a verse.

That is a hard question; probably as the answer is pretty rough.

Romans 10:9-10 is pretty specific. Without any further information and with the knowledge that God doesn't fill me in on every conversation He's ever had with anyone else, I'd have to say that group of people don't qualify. Not sure about what they might be lying, but I don't think - as qualified - they are Christians in the meaning of Romans 10:9-10.

Please do not think that makes me happy to relate.

Without going into detail, those who believe water baptism is required have an excuse for him. I don't agree with it, but there is an official excuse for that faction.

They are qualified IF they qualify under Romans 10:9-10. At least for those of us who do not buy into the 'must be water baptized' theory.

Yes. You mentioned one of the clearest in Romans 10. Without doing a search, there are a number of passages in the New Testament stating so. The third chapter of John's Gospel comes to mind. (Baptism not mentioned.) There are more than that but I'm too lazy to look them all up.

By writing "Is there a theology that claims this? Really?" I meant a theology that claims water-baptism is necessary for salvation. And Romans 10 doesn't mention it at all.

I don't believe one is born again in water-baptism, but in faith when they turn to God in their heart. And this is something that is ultimately done by God – not men.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Definitely; my family belongs to a branch that believes water baptism is the "one baptism" and a person cannot be saved without water baptism. They cite many passages in support; chief among them being Philip and the eunuch. Without water baptism they say all are damned to hellfire forever.

And only immersion in water is legal; sprinkling and pouring and such? No good. If you were sprinkled or poured upon, doesn't count. Eternal damnation for you.
 
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JohannaSK

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In John 3: 5 Jesus says:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

I heard a preacher man say that by "water" Jesus refers to the water that comes from the womb when baby is born. What do you guys think about this interpretation?
 
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EmSw

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In John 3: 5 Jesus says:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

I heard a preacher man say that by "water" Jesus refers to the water that comes from the womb when baby is born. What do you guys think about this interpretation?

Nope. Water represents truth spiritually. Peter bears this out.

1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
 
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JohannaSK

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Nope. Water represents truth spiritually. Peter bears this out.

1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Are you saying that in John 3: 5 Jesus used the word 'water' only metaphorically? Like in John 4: 14 where He says to the Samaritan woman: "but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

So you say it's not concrete water (H2O) that Jesus is referring to in John 3: 5 either?

I think this explanation is quite possible.
 
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bling

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In John 3: 5 Jesus says:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

I heard a preacher man say that by "water" Jesus refers to the water that comes from the womb when baby is born. What do you guys think about this interpretation?
We call it "water" today, but the baby urine would not be considered "water" and would not be referred to as water.
 
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bling

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I do not know of people who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them.


I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you. We talk about being “Born again”, which comes from Nicodemus encounter with Christ (John 3 :1-21):


Being “born again” is what Jesus told Nicodemus he need to do. This requires some thinking, because Jesus does not address the questions or comments that are verbalized, but directs his comments to the persons next step in their personal spiritual development (what is on their heart spiritually). Jesus is not making some general philosophical statement (like Buddha might make) but is always addressing the audience He is talking to. We have to get into the context.

What did Nicodemus need to do next in his spiritual development?

What does Nicodemus need to be doing next? (study the Old Testament, become one of the followers of Jesus right then and there, Confess, repent, etc.)

The first thing Nicodemus might do at least is what he already knows he should do? Is that not where you would start? So what is that?

Since Nicodemus is still part of the Sanhedrin, he would not have been immersed baptized by John’s baptism. That would have got him thrown out of the Sanhedrin, but being smart Nicodemus would know he should be baptized.

John’s baptism would have been a hot topic among the religious scholars, yet the answer was obvious and they all know it (remember Jesus using it against them and causing them to quit asking him questions?)

Jesus is not going to hand out the answer to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus knows the answer, but he will make Nicodemus think about it hard, since it would already be on his mind.



Christian water baptism as seen in scripture seems to fit the “born again” scenario Christ was talking about since it: Is always adult (there are only two examples that “might include infants” but nothing definite, all the others are adult believers) water immersion to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do it to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.

Why not be baptized again (there is no rule against this) to experience all you can from being baptized?

Yes, Ro. 10 is silent about baptism, but silence is not a proof for anything and baptism was not the topic being discussed, the Jews had to believe first, so baptism would be down the road.

Is the real problem with humility, since adult water baptism is a humbling act?

Is the problem with “witnessing” since baptism help other Christians remember what they went through?

The whole “argument” about the “one” baptism having to be “spiritual baptism” so we do not need to (or even shouldn’t) be water immersed is not supported by scriptural examples, since everyone that was “baptized” by the Holy Spirit seems to have also been water baptized.

In an effort to emphasis God’s unconditional (salvation), water baptism of believers has been avoided as a subject. People have “argued” that water baptism is a work and since “works” are not required for salvation, water baptism must be avoided. Most “Christian” religious groups “allow” immersion of believers if they want it.

The problem with this reasoning is adult believer immersion is not something you “do” (work), but is something you allow to be done to you. It is not something “done” as some requirement, but is something you get to do for your sake (to help you) and the sake of others.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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bling said:
We call it "water" today, but the baby urine would not be considered "water" and would not be referred to as water.
No, baby urine is not water and would not be considered water.

Amniotic fluid is not water, either. But it was thought to be at the time of Jesus' and Nicodemus' birth.

The same is true of John 19:34. Water, in a pure water state, doe not exist in the human body. However, along with blood came a clear fluid described as 'water'. More than likely serum which separates from blood after death.

Birth by water refers to natural birth, accompanied by amniotic fluid, not the water of baptism. One notes in the passage you cite, Jesus does not mention nor describe nor imply water baptism.
 
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bling

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No, baby urine is not water and would not be considered water.

Amniotic fluid is not water, either. But it was thought to be at the time of Jesus' and Nicodemus' birth.

The same is true of John 19:34. Water, in a pure water state, doe not exist in the human body. However, along with blood came a clear fluid described as 'water'. More than likely serum which separates from blood after death.


Unless you have some first century Greek secular writings mentioning amniotic fluid being water we really cannot say for sure if first century Jews thought of it as “water”.

Birth by water refers to natural birth, accompanied by amniotic fluid, not the water of baptism. One notes in the passage you cite, Jesus does not mention nor describe nor imply water baptism.

In John 3:1-21 Christ said to Nicodemus; “unless they are born of water and the Spirit.” Yet everyone is physically born so if being born of water is referring to the physical birth it is not possible for a person not to be born physically. By Christ saying “unless” makes it a choice, suggesting a person could keep from doing it and it was something they had to do “they are born of water”.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Bling, you obvious belong to one of the groups believing water baptism is needed in order to obtain God's mercy. The Bible does not say such a thing. We are probably not going to change each other's minds here.

Go in peace.
 
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bling

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It's not "baby urine." You may need to speak to some mothers about their "water breaking."
Unless you have some first century Greek secular writings mentioning amniotic fluid being water we really cannot say for sure if first century Jews thought of it as “water”.
 
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