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Are there many on this forum who have received the Holy Spirit; with the bible evidence of tongues ?

Discussion in 'Deeper Fellowship' started by Saint JOHN, Oct 7, 2021.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm not willing to go as far as to say they are demon possessed, but I do know the power of hypnotic suggestion through certain forms of music and repetitive lyrics. From what I see through watching the type of worship music from Hillsong and Bethel, I see how hypnotic suggestion can take over a whole congregation. In one clip, the people were so spaced out through the music, the pastor struggled for around 15 minutes to being the crowd under control. I think that the mass "slaying in the Spirit" performed by Benny Hinn is hypnotic suggestion. I have seen a hypnotist wave at a group of people and said "sleep", and immediately the whole group fell asleep. Then he had total control over them and got them to do all kinds of silly things for the entertainment of the audience. Hypnotism can be used to get people to give up smoking, and for women to have no pain during childbirth.

    The sad thing about it is that the majority of the congregation don't know that they are being manipulated by hypnotic suggestion. They think they are under control of themselves when in reality they are not. If you observe the pastor and elders in the meeting, you will see that they do not have the manifestations. This is because they are the ones controlling the rest. Part of the hypnotic suggestion is that the congregation members will defend their conduct to the max and genuinely believe that they are under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

    Pentecostal groups that do not employ this type of hypnotic suggestion do not use Hillsong music and tend to keep to traditional hymns and choruses that contain substance rather than one line of text repeated over and over again. The preaching is Scripture and Gospel based, and the form of continuance is based on divine healing, prophecy, tongues with interpretation in their meetings instead of anything connected with uncontrolled kundalini manifestations. Of course, we don't see these groups on Youtube because they don't attract the big crowds and the spectacular performances. Many Pentecostal group meetings are often very similar to Baptist or Presbyterian services.
     
  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It depends on how the gift is taught and how seekers are induced to receive it. I can understand how people can receive a fake gift when subjected to pressure by a group of people laying hands on them in a very emotionally and kundalini charged environment. I am very careful about who I allow to lay hands on me, because people impart what they have in them, and if I don't know the person or persons, I would never know what might jump out at me. Kundalini spirits can be passed on through the laying on of hands, as well as spirits of divination being passed on through false personal prophecies.
     
  3. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    I went to such a meeting many years ago and so many fell backwards to be caught by a line of people at what seemed the suggestion of the minster/person running the 'show' because a show is what it looked like to me and it didn't feel right. I was praying for protection and I was not affected.
    In scripture everyone including Jesus falls forward not backwards.

    Genesis 17:3
    Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him

    Leviticus 9:24
    Then fire came out from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering and the portions of fat on the altar; and when all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces.

    Matthew 26:39
    And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

    So I think it's right to be a little skeptical of some of these ministries. Like everything Satan is sure to counterfeit the real thing.
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You were right to feel wrong about what you were seeing. The only place in the New Testament where people fell backwards was when the crowd came to arrest Jesus and when He identified Himself they all fell backwards. This is to show that no one could arrest Jesus unless He went voluntarily. The other instance of two people being slain in the Spirit were Ananias and Sapphira who had lied to the Holy Spirit and when confronted by Peter, they fell down stone dead.

    So the current practice of people falling backward supposedly under the power of the Holy Spirit is found nowhere in the New Testament therefore it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but the influence of another spirit. It is interesting that people fall down under the power of the Holy Spirit, but the sick people who have that happen to them get up not healed. What does that tell you? If it was really the power of the Holy Spirit, why weren't they healed as well? You would think so, wouldn't you? There is a video clip of Kenny Copeland touching a guy in a wheelchair and he went backwards, wheelchair and all, but then he was helped back up, but still sick and bound to his wheelchair. Obviously there was enough "power" to have him fall backwards but not enough to achieve healing for him.

    I saw a clip of a Rheinard Bonnke meeting in Africa where sick people were "auditioned" under the stage, and the really sick people were weeded out of those who were able to go up on the stage. This showed me that the great man was unable to achieve healing for the really sick ones. Just like the back room of Benny Hinn's meetings where all the seriously ill and chronically disabled ones are. Hinn never goes out there, and all of those people end up going home without being healed.

    When the real power of the Holy Spirit is in a meeting, sinners get saved through the preaching of the Gospel, the seriously sick and disabled get healed, and genuinely demon possessed people get set free. All this can happen without one person falling backwards. Seeing the real signs and wonders would cause many to get off their seats, on their knees and faces worshiping the Lord in godly fear and reverence because His presence is really in that meeting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
  5. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Yeah most of what I see in Independent Fundamental Baptist circles is congregational singing of traditional hymns.
    Not exactly my musical style.. but.. at least you know it's sound traditional biblical doctrine, and sometimes it's a bit of a comfort to hear quaint songs like them.
    So seems like you're more of a conservative continuationist rather than a full blown charismatic.
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  7. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  8. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    :)
     
  9. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Well, water baptism isn't strictly necessary according to most baptists. Communion and Baptism are things you do in obedience to God but Baptists consider salvation to be totally through faith in Christ, with nothing else on top of it. They don't consider water baptism to wash away your sins, to us only the blood of Jesus can do that. Baptism and communion are symbols, baptism as dying and being buried and resurrecting with Jesus, and communion to remember Jesus' death on the cross for us.

    I know that the denominational name makes it seem like Water Baptism is super important but really it's just that they wanted to stress that to be baptized requires belief first for it to mean anything, and that it should be done the way the bible teaches, which is immersion. It's also probably the most loosely organized denomination. Outside of believer's baptism, and the essentials of Protestant Christianity like salvation is by faith, divinity of Jesus and the bible is the inerrant word of God, there's all kinds of variants of baptists there's Calvanists, Arminians, Continuationists, Cessasionists, Premillennial, Amillennialists, it's just really loosely organized, only "non denominational" is less organized I think.

    I'm not strictly a cessasionist but I lean that way, I think okay, maybe these gifts could still operate but just.. I haven't seen anything that actually lines up with the biblical standards, prophecies that are 100% right (if they're 50% accurate, they're not coming from God, God is 100% accurate), and speaking in tongues is speaking in understandable languages. If I found that people were doing those things, praise the Lord.

    I actually somewhat expect it in an eschatalogical sense, I think that most bible prophecies have dual fulfillments. So, Joel 2:28-29 had a forerunner fulfillment on Pentecost as Peter pointed out, with the 120.. but I believe that there will be another fulfillment shortly before the second coming of Christ.

    So if I find that people are having true, accurate prophecies, 100% of the time, or that people are legitimately just able to speak foreign languages fluently without training or able to heal by touch the way Jesus and the Apostles were.... okay.. it's a sign that Jesus is coming soon. I expect it to happen, I just don't believe it's happened yet.
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I can understand that on the Day of Pentecost, Cornelius' household and the 12 disciples at Ephesus, the tongues came spontaneously (rather than involuntarily). I think that these were first-events where they weren't expecting it to happen that way. I don't think that Peter expected Cornelius and his household to break out in tongues. All he did was share the Gospel with them and suddenly the Holy Spirit fell on them. I'm not sure whether Paul did or didn't expect the same thing to happen at Ephesus. Yet at Samaria when Peter and John went there to support Philip's ministry, they laid hands on the people resulting in them receiving the Holy Spirit. Luke doesn't say they spoke in tongues, but according to what Simon saw and offered money for, something extraordinary must have happened over and above the healing and casting out of demons that had happened with Philip's preaching. Given that the founding of the Corinthian church happened at least 20 years after Pentecost, people would have learned that receiving the Holy Spirit and His gifts was achieved by faith and was no longer as spontaneous as it was at the beginning. I think at the birth of the Pentecostal movement the bestowal of tongues was spontaneous, but then, as you describe, elders had a habit of assisting the faith of others in some pretty bizarre ways!
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    For the first two years after I received Christ in a Pentecostal church, I was as ultra-Pentecostal as anyone. In fact I was a pain in the neck - too loud, Bible-banged people at work, etc., and so on. Then the Lord got hold of me and showed me that I had all this religious stuff but didn't really know Him as a person. Long story short, I started to seek Him in earnest and He revealed Himself to me in my spirit and it utterly changed my life. Then I was introduced to Reformed Puritan literature, which grounded me in the Word and the true Gospel. For quite a while I put the Pentecostal stuff on the back burner while I read Spurgeon, Baxter, Bridge, Gurnall and imbibed what they taught. But it still took me a while to discover that many Pentecostal practices were not found in the New Testament. I spent around eight years in two Baptist churches, and 23 years as an elder in the Presbyterian church. Along with marrying a wife who kept my feet on the ground and stopped my flights of religious fancy, my Christian life became a lot more balanced and Scripture-based. I am still a continuist, but I don't go along with the jerking, shaking, falling down, public tongues, and other uncontrolled antics. My view of the real power of God consists in people getting genuinely saved, healed and set free from demonic influence.
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I like to be cheeky and say I'm religious, not spiritual.

    I don't know what you mean by "just religious" though. It sounds pejorative, but outside of a very few Christian circles religion isn't a bad thing, and being religious just means we take our faith in Jesus Christ seriously.

    As far as this thread topic is concerned, I spent ~10 years, from about the age of 8 until I was 18, in a Pentecostal church. Foursquare specifically. When I was 12 years old a traveling evangelist came to our church and I had hands laid on me for "baptism with the Holy Spirit", resulting in my being "slain in the Spirit" and doing what other people were doing who had hands laid on them, "speaking in tongues".

    I only "spoke in tongues" once in church, but it was a frequent part of my private prayer time. Including for a number of years even after I left the church and went on to explore more of the diversity of Christian teaching and practice, the highly abbreviated version of that story is that I'm now a Lutheran, and have been a Lutheran for a little over a decade now (though I was a closet Lutheran for about five years prior).

    With the advantage of hindsight, and a deeper understanding of Scripture and the historic Christian faith, I came to accept that those experiences were a product of emotion and expectation. I was emotionally and psychologically primed to fall down, that's what other people were doing; I was primed to come up with something coming out of my mouth, others were doing it too. And over time I could "speak in tongues" like flicking a light switch, regardless of whether I was "feeling spiritual" or "feeling the Spirit", I could convincingly produce complex babbling sounds.

    I can still do that. It's like riding a bicycle.

    But since I reject the basic doctrinal premise of this thread's title, of "receiving the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues" as false and unbiblical, then my perspective may be quite unwelcome here.

    We do not receive the Holy Spirit by some ecstatic or supernatural experience. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are regenerated by the grace of God, so that the one who is born again is born of the Spirit, and has received the Holy Spirit. This is why St. Peter says in the Acts of the Apostles that the one who is baptized receives the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38). As our Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, the new birth is of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). So that every baptized Christian can be certain and confident that they belong to Christ, and the Spirit lives in them.

    The biblical expression "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is never applied to individuals receiving the Holy Spirit. Instead the expression is found exclusively in reference to historic moments in the ancient life of the Church: At Pentecost and at the household of Cornelius. Jesus Christ "baptized" His Church with the Holy Spirit by sending the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, as He Himself promised, "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever." (John 14:16) which He echoes again in the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles when speaking to them what would take place a short time after His Ascension, which occurred on Pentecost:

    "And while staying with them He ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which He said, 'you heard from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'

    So when they had come together, they asked Him, 'Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?' He said to them, 'It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'
    " - Acts of the Apostles 1:4-8

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I used "spontaneous" to describe what happened on the Day of Pentecost instead of involuntary because when the disciples first started speaking in tongues, they continued on their own volition. They could have stopped, but they were having so much fun, they didn't want to. This was the arrival of the Holy Spirit whom they had been waiting for and they were going to enjoy every blessing He had to give them at the time.​

    It was 55 years ago. I couldn't speak in tongues before the Holy Spirit enabled me. I didn't know how. The Pentecostal church I was in did not encourage putting pressure on people to speak in tongues. They believed in waiting on God for Him to do it. It was only when the Holy Spirit spoke to my spirit and told me to receive Him, that He told me after that, "You can speak in tongues now." I stepped out on that word, and found myself able to speak in an articulate language that I had never learned.

    It depends on your definition of "conscious control". Speaking in tongues is the same as deciding to speak English. Because English is my first language, I can automatically express myself, choosing the right words. But the actual speaking is under my control. Only an insane person babbles away without having any control over what he is saying. I can choose when to speak and when not to. Because the actual language is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, I don't have direct control of the nature of the language itself. Paul says that when he speaks in tongues, his understanding is unfruitful. In other words, he doesn't understand the language he is speaking. All he knows is that he is speaking a language that God understands. But he is not under a compulsion to speak, because the actual speaking is under his personal control.

    I don't know what your experience of Pentecostal churches are, but I have never been in a Pentecostal meeting where there has been peer congregational pressure to speak in tongues. My experience in meetings is that people love speaking in tongues because they love to worship God that way.

    During my first few weeks in a Pentecostal church I felt no peer pressure to speak in tongues. I knew that being filled with the Spirit brought a new power to a person's spiritual life and the evidence (as that church taught it) was speaking in tongues. I thought it was going to happen when I got baptised three weeks after receiving Christ, but it didn't happen. I thought that it was going to happen spontaneously when I came out of the water, as I saw it happen to others who were being baptised. But nothing happened. I think it is because I was expecting God to just do it instead of me using my faith to enable it to happen. In actual fact, it happened away from the church on a sunny weekday afternoon while sitting on my bed in the hostel where I was living, reading a book about receiving the Holy Spirit. I was alone, no hype, no emotion. The Holy Spirit spoke to me out of the pages of the book and told me that He gave the Holy Spirit 2000 years ago, and that I should just receive Him. I said, "I receive the Holy Spirit right now". Then the Holy Spirit said, "You can speak in tongues now." So I tried and out came the language. it was as simple as that. All I had to do was to step out in faith and do what the Holy Spirit told me to do, and He gave me the language to speak. In actual fact, I have never done anything through peer pressure, or pressure from any church. I walked out of a church once when a pastor with a "power and control" spirit demanded that I come under his authority. I told him in front of all the congregation that no way was I going to come under his authority, because Jesus is my Lord and I am not going to let anyone come in between Him and me. My view of authority is that I have no obligation to accept the authority of anyone except the Person who was crucified for me.

    I have had extensive personal fellowship and experience with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, and I have never encountered any of what you are describing. I don't know why you are picking on Frances and Charles Hunter. I have watched a number of videos of their ministry, and I have found them true to Scripture, and realistic that it is Jesus who heals people and not them. In the churches I have associated with, "faith healing" is not an accepted definition. They don't believe that people are healed by faith. They have used "divine healing" to show that Jesus heals people and He is sovereign in the way He goes about it. If someone is not healed, they have never said, "You weren't healed because you didn't have enough faith." This is because they have accepted that it is God's decision whether a person is healed or not.

    I can't really comment on their ministry. Like all ministries, they weren't perfect, but then, who is?

    A lot of things have happened since the late 1960s when I was introduced to the Pentecostal church. Much of what we see in Charismatic services is so different, that it bears no relation to what I knew when I first signed up. When I first fellowshiped with Penteostals, they kept to the New Testament and the preaching of the Gospel was paramount and the baptism with the Spirit was for power connected with the preaching of the Gospel and the saving of sinners. But through the 1980s-90s the emphasis seemed to have changed into manifestations being prominent and the preaching of the Gospel put on the back burner. Instead of the traditional hymns that were Gospel-based in their words, the music changed to more emotional tunes with repeated often one-line lyrics based on "how I feel about God" more than what is God saying to us through the songs. Instead of the filling of the Spirit resulting in boldness to preach the gospel and see souls saved, healed and set free from demons, the "power' has morphed into bodily jerking, shaking, falling backwards, rolling around the floor, and other bizarre behaviour. It has changed from how the power of the Holy Spirit can flow through us to convict sinners of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come, to what "the Holy Spirit" is doing "in me". This is connected with an inward looking "my spirituality" which is tending more to New Age spirituality instead of genuine Christian faith and practice. The original Pentecostals were strong on personal holiness as a foundation for a successful Christian life, but the more modern ones have gone for a "spirituality" that is more self-centred and based on emotion. It has evolved from "what does God think of me at my level of holiness and commitment to Him" to "how do I feel about God and am I experiencing the right emotion?"
     
  15. lismore

    lismore Maranatha

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    Oscarr, I agree with your observations. God Bless :)
     
  16. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  17. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN Member

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    It would seem the confusion is rife !?

    why listen to MEN who tell you you don't have to worship God as commanded by Jesus Christ !?

    Ge 3:4 .... Ye shall not surely die:

    as mentioned before :

    Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship [him] in spirit and in truth

    1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    now why would someone NOT want you to speak to God HIS WAY

    Man made theory / theology etc is what crucified Christ in the first place ;as is done by the millions today !

    The book of Acts clearly shows how they and do receive the Holy Spirit

    Acts8v15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    ....

    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
    19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

    con artist willing to pay !!! for just a decision or some change of religious theology !!?? He saw and heard! just like today when people get into contact with God for REAL.

    Tongues (and the rest of the signs following believers as Jesus warned his disciples against fakes ) is not something you learn but ,instantly given upon receipt of the Holy Spirit .

    and Corinthians shows how your church (people not a building ) is to be run !!!

    Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

    Mt 21:16 ... Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

    Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    Mt 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
     
  18. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN Member

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    PS

    6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
     
  19. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  20. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN Member

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    AbbaLove

    Thank you for your reply; I was aiming for Spirit Filled ,(ie tongues prayers only but never mind ) but to perhaps clarify as I have previously stated it is a COMMAND of Jesus Christ to have this as ALL the signs follow TRUE BELIEVERS ( john 4v 24 ; mark 16v 16+ acts 2v4 etc) mixed churches are NOT the way , some obey and worship in the spirit and others cant !? Religious types pollute the word of God and mislead ( murder Spiritually) millions of people. Being aware that God is and his Son Jesus Christ is (Christ = Anointed [by the Holy Ghost/Spirit]) is NOT belief ; look in your own dictionary words like .. trust in , rely on , obey come up. There are many "NICE" people who would bend over backwards to help others and don't even believe in God ! so that is not a prerequisite of God, not humanitarianism; (good to have though) first things first .. must MAKE SURE one has the holy Spirit hence why Jesus warned his disciples in mark 16 etc, you cant have them (all) without him ! it shows Real to Fake ... tares !

    Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
    6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    must have the Holy Spirit it is the ONLY thing able to get us into the kingdom of God !!!

    religions differing ideas are NOT accepted ! its GODS way ( what Jesus gave himself for) or the highway !!

    ps how to eg... Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    repent .. baby's cant (man made nonsense) baptism full immersion its what greek means ; symbol of burial. Gods part in accepting your attitude and obedience gives you the Holy Spirit !
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
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