Are there further chances after death?

[Der Alte]

Parables are not meant to be analysed in such detail. They are simple stories that illustrate a point. What do you think the point of the parable is?

So it must not be interpreted literally but in a way that supports your assumptions/presuppositions? How about the point of this parable? Does everyone, no matter what, go to the wedding?

Matthew 22:2-14
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.​

If a sheep strays away from the flock the shepherd will search for it.

​

 

[Hmm]

So it must not be interpreted literally but in a way that supports your assumptions/presuppositions? How about the point of this parable? Does everyone, no matter what, go to the wedding?

Don't overthink it. I was simply asking you what you thought the parable meant.

If a sheep strays away from the flock the shepherd will search for it.

So not just Christian sheep (if there is such an animal) then as you were arguing earlier? I'm finding it hard to keep up tbh.

 

[Cormack]

Do you know the difference between "should" and "will?" Why did Paul write "should bow, should confess?" Do you think Paul got it wrong so you had to correct it to "every knee bows,""every tongue confesses?"

There’s an obvious difference in English. Although if you and I read through several translations of Philippians 2:10-11 we’d find the use of “should” and “will.”

It’s difficult to know if there’s really that distinction of will and should in the Greek text that we’re trying to interpret, which at least in this case is okay, because God Himself settles the “should” vs. “will” dilemma in Romans 14:11.

It is written: “’As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
​

Okay so what’s the purpose of “as surely as I live,” well, it’s an oath. It’s God swearing as sure as He lives, and because He’s the author and source of life that’s a sure promise, as sure as He lives, every knee’s going to bow down and every tongue’s going to confess.

Although if we return and read through Philippians chapter two, we can read how it’s not so much of a maybe ought to be thing that the author’s doing, rather he’s writing out the story as it’s unfolded and as it’s going to continue. It’s more prophetic than just Paul grumbling over what ought to be the case.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
​

If any one knee doesn’t bow to Christ than they’re bowing to some other name, hence Jesus wouldn’t have the name that’s above every other name. Though as sure as the Lord lives every single knee without exception will bow.

 

[Der Alte]

@Der Alte, I note that you haven't responded to my simple question asking you what you think the parable of the lost sheep means.

So did you! Now answer me.

 

[Halbhh]

Does the Bible say clearly either way whether or not that death is the end of the chance of salvation?

Some passages that seem to say that there are further chances:

19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
I Peter 3:19-20​

For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
I Peter 4:6​

And some that suggest that there are no further chances:

And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment,
Hebrews 9:27​

Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.
Luke 16:26​

The Luke passage occurs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Here, the rich man, now dead and in hell, asks Father Abraham to "send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames." v 24. v26 is part of Abraham’s explanation for why this request won’t be granted.

None of these verses seem very conclusive to me for either view point. ....
Any thoughts on this question?

Possibly Lazarus and the Rich Man shows what Catholics call purgatory, but the other possibility is justice before the final death, the "second death".

About who gets to hear the gospel after mortal life, it can be all who didn't hear it correctly or at all in mortal life.

But in John 3 we read those who did knowingly reject the gospel chance are condemned.

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So, those that did understand-hear the gospel, and then refused, seem to be finished.

 

[Cormack]

Notice from Isaiah also, the repeated phraseology about “knees bowing” “tongues swearing” and the promise made from God the Father. It’s not a should be but a cast iron guarantee.

By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.​

 

[Hmm]

So did you! Now answer me.

You mean your question about sheep going to weddings? I didn't answer it because I didn't understand it. Were you talking about eweniversalists?

 

[Basil the Great]

Some people speculate that God gives those who are lost a last chance at the moment of death. This is certainly possible, but we have no evidence of such. None of us knows for certain what will happen when we die. Hence, it seems prudent to live our lives as if we do not get a second chance.

 

[Der Alte]

There’s an obvious difference in English. Although if you and I read through several translations of Philippians 2:10-11 we’d find the use of “should” and “will.”
It’s difficult to know if there’s really that distinction of will and should in the Greek text that we’re trying to interpret, which at least in this case is okay, because God Himself settles the “should” vs. “will” dilemma in Revelation.

It is written: “’As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”​

Okay so what’s the purpose of “as surely as I live,” well, it’s an oath. It’s God swearing as sure as He lives, and because He’s the author and source of life that’s a sure promise, as sure as He lives, every knee’s going to bow down and every tongue’s going to confess.
Although if we return and read through Philippians chapter two, we can read how it’s not so much of a maybe ought to be thing that the author’s doing, rather he’s writing out the story as it’s unfolded and as it’s going to continue. It’s more prophetic than just Paul grumbling over what ought to be the case.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,​

If any one knee doesn’t bow to Christ than they’re bowing to some other name, hence Jesus wouldn’t have the name that’s above every other name. Though as sure as the Lord lives every single knee without exception will bow.

And there is a difference in Greek no matter how many word games you try to play.
Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”​

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]​

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
.....The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.
I read the entire Bible not just a handful of out-of-context proof texts.

 

[Cormack]

Some people speculate that God gives those who are lost a last chance at the moment of death. This is certainly possible, but we have no evidence of such.

I think 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 are excellent evidence for the claim that people receive another chance even hundreds of years after their death. Christians told the plundering of hell by Christ story very confidently in the early centuries after the crucifixion, and it’s a sure thing that many of our biblical heroes like Moses and Abraham never heard the Gospel this side of heaven.

 

[Basil the Great]

I appreciate your links. Most will probably say that the verses apply only to those who died before Jesus. Anyway, it warms my heart to see a Baptist try and give some hope for a second chance. I do not know about the UK, but here in the USA most Baptists would disagree, though I think that things may be changing some with the younger generation.

 

[Cormack]

And there is a difference in Greek no matter how many word games you try to play.

To be fair you’re the person playing with “should” vs. “will,” I’ve just shown you by the Bible that it’s not should bow but rather they will bow.

Why did Paul write "should bow, should confess?" Do you think Paul got it wrong so you had to correct it to "every knee bows,""every tongue confesses?"

At least in this case you tried to correct Paul and God the Father, who swears that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Not should, but will.

Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.

Rather than either you or I going into the Greek to show anything we can just check who’s “bowing their knees” and “confessing with their tongues” in the many other instances where that phraseology gets used in the Bible.

It’s always true believers and never defeated enemies or false converts or anything negative. It’s a positive statement of good intent about every single knee, those in heaven, upon earth and under the earth.

That’s why we can know that the use of the phrase In Philippians chapter two isn’t suddenly departing from the normal positive biblical usage and changing the meaning on the readers.

The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

God the Father doesn’t agree. God the Father swears by the fact that He lives that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to His glory.

 

[Cormack]

I do not know about the UK,

I think they’d disagree with me here too. You know what they say, when America sneezes the UK catches a cold.

 

[Saint Steven]

The knees of every creature bow wilfully and joyously, rather than as a consequence of divine defeat or begrudged compulsion. In light of that, I’m not immediately sure why there’s such an ardent resistance to the universal reconciliation perspective.

This might help.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Der Alte]

I think 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 are excellent evidence for the claim that people receive another chance even hundreds of years after their death. Christians told the plundering of hell by Christ story very confidently in the early centuries after the crucifixion, and it’s a sure thing that many of our biblical heroes like Moses and Abraham never heard the Gospel this side of heaven.

Only if interpreted out-of-context as UR-ites do.

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

First, "prison" is never called grave/hell and grave/hell is never called prison anywhere in scripture.
If this is a proof text for salvation of all mankind after death then it fails. Only eight were saved and they were not dead they were alive when they were saved.

 

[Cormack]

Only if interpreted out-of-context as UR-ites do.

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

First, "prison" is never called grave/hell and grave/hell is never called prison anywhere in scripture.
If this is a proof text for salvation of all mankind after death then it fails. Only eight were saved and they were not dead they were alive when they were saved.

Okay, I hope that your interpretation and your view of 1 Peter chapters three and four bring you some joy and some peace, sir. I personally find the Harrowing of hell an incredible part of Christ’s story that helps show the cross in its most victorious light.

 

[Der Alte]

To be fair you’re the person playing with “should” vs. “will,” I’ve just shown you by the Bible that it’s not should bow but rather they will bow.
At least in this case you tried to correct Paul and God the Father, who swears that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Not should, but will.

Wrong! I quoted what the verse actually said.

God the Father doesn’t agree. God the Father swears by the fact that He lives that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to His glory.

Wrong! Show me where Isaiah said "will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to His glory?
Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Isaiah 45:23
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
LXX Isaiah 45:23
23 By myself I swear, righteousness shall surely proceed out of my mouth; my words shall not be frustrated; that to me every knee shall bend, and every tongue shall swear by God,

 

[Der Alte]

Okay, I hope that your interpretation and your view of 1 Peter chapters three and four bring you some joy and some peace, sir. I personally find the Harrowing of hell an incredible part of Christ’s story that helps show the cross in its most victorious light.

So you think 1 Peter 3:19-20 does not say exactly what I posted?

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

First, "prison" is never called grave/hell and grave/hell is never called prison anywhere in scripture.
If this is a proof text for salvation of all mankind after death then it fails. Only eight were saved and they were not dead they were alive when they were saved.

 

[The Liturgist]

Only if interpreted out-of-context as UR-ites do.

1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

First, "prison" is never called grave/hell and grave/hell is never called prison anywhere in scripture.
If this is a proof text for salvation of all mankind after death then it fails. Only eight were saved and they were not dead they were alive when they were saved.

The Harrowing of Hell is an ancient doctrine, referenced by the Apostle’s Creed (our Lord did not descend into Hell to be tortured by the devil but to defeat the devil), and it has the effect of correcting the otherwise unfair situation where the righteous men of the Old Testament who did believe in him, and others who had what Roman Scholastic theologians call “invincible ignorance” to follow Him out of Hell and into Abraham’s Bosom to await the General Resurrection.

However, it is a tradition of the Church, (at least the very high church Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, conservative Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, and probably the high church Evangelical Catholics of the LCMS and other conservative Lutheran denominations) based on the implications of Scripture and not any specific verse that I am aware of.

It is not intended to say anything about universal salvation, however, because it specifically addresses the issue of those who lived before Christ.

 

[Hmm]

Wrong! Show me where Isaiah said "will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to His glory?

So you're prepared to totally ignore Paul in Romans and Philippians where he says "every knee will bow" in favour of Isaiah saying "shall" (and the distinction isn't as meaningful as you'd like it to anyway) just to preserve your ECT bias? This is desperate stuff.