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Are there further chances after death?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hmm, Aug 20, 2021.

  1. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    I don't see what the umpteenth re-paste of that jumble, has to do with what I said in the post you attached it to.
     
  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If you find one let me know and we'll talk about it.
    They cited scriptures. Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews of his time believed about hell. Why didn't Jesus condemn them instead of teaching,

    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
     
  3. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    There's the problem you close your eyes and will not read anything which proves you wrong.
    It documents the historical Jewish belief in hell which Jesus in His teaching supported rather than condemning. Don't bother responding.
     
  4. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    Ironically those are proof texts for universalism.

    And I'm sure you know damnationists would counter that with Romans 1:20

    "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse".
     
  5. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    I've seen it many times before and it doesn't have anything to do with the mini-bio I wrote. In which I said that I have no fixed view to be proven wrong.
     
  6. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    Damnationists try to make a jumble of verses like that all say the same thing, but they don't. Some are obvious throwbacks to judgments made by the prophets before Babylon wiped out Israel. Jesus is repeating them and using similar language before Rome wiped out Israel. Others don't even mention hell/ECT. The only time I think Jesus might have been playing with their unscriptural possibly pagan influenced belief was Luke 16:19-31. But that's still yet another allusion to Israel soon being wiped out, the end of the old covenant and the new covenant made with the gentiles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2021
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  7. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    The first problem with this is that it's difficult to make out the way it's formatted. Maybe it looks good on your monitor, but on mine it's a mess. That's why I've suggested that you use the default format the rest of us use.

    Ber. 28b, B.M. 83b, R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b, B. M. 58b, Sanh. 108b etc. are refence sources I can't make out.

    Other sources like Enoch and Judith are dubious by nature.

    Most of all it seems highly unlikely that Jesus would be appealing to the Talmud. Unless perhaps Jesus was turning the heresy of the scribes against them, which is much more plausible. But most likely Jesus was saying what the OT prophets were saying - outside of whatever the scribes had made up about that - because like those prophets he was prophesying the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

    Most of the rest of it is the usual assertion that Jesus was talking about hell via the OT prophets (even though the OT prophets where talking about the impending Babylonian captivity) and how those conclusion are reached. But I can't really tell what parts of that summation are BC or AD.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  8. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    The parable of the lost sheep seems to support the idea of further chances after death. The shepherd in the parable “goes after” the wandering sheep. For how long does he go after the lost sheep before finally giving up? It's "until he finds it", at least in Luke. It's not " or until it dies". The shepherd will find the lost sheep. Obviously God does not manage to bring the Hitler types back to the fold before they die so the attempt must continue after death where God would continue to bring us around, help make things clear and help us get out of the rut of denial.
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Probably one of the most telling parts of this passage is the first two verses in the chapter. The parable seems to be in response to what the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were saying.

    Another thing I noticed in re-reading this, which I hadn't noticed before, is the sheep owner leaves the ninety-nine in the open country to go search for the one lost sheep. But when he finds the lost sheep he goes home. Thus leaving the ninety-nine in the open country? - lol

    Luke 15:1-7 NIV
    Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
    3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
     
  10. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Thanks for quoting the parable. Rereading it, it struck me that the lost sheep didn't actually do anything and yet Jesus says that a sinner has to repent. I wonder if this is saying that the repentence is automatic, that if we wander off from God and get lost we'll eventually be in a very unhappy state and the joy of being found will make us naturally realise what a big mistake we made in straying so far? I guess you can talk about parables for ever and never exhaust their meaning.

    I wonder if this is why Jesus used parables in the first place? To say that there's not just one officially correct view of things but we need to find a meaning that makes sense to ourselves.
     
  11. MMXX

    MMXX Brian

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    That's the message of the prodigal son.
     
  12. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Yes. The two parables say the same thing to me but perhaps that's just me.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    All three "lost" parables have a similar repentance conclusion.

    Luke 15:7 NIV
    I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

    Luke 15:10 NIV
    In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

    Luke 15:21 NIV
    “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
     
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  14. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Yes, and again this is completely compatible with Christian Universalism, which doesn't say that all paths lead to God, but that Christ is the only door and that sincere repentence is required. But it also honours the scripture that say that God desires all to be saved and that He will save in the only way possible: by extending things beyond death.

    The OP asked for any scripture that says this can't happen and nothing has so far been provided.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I find the response of the father in the lost son parable to be most interesting. No scolding, no shaming, no ultimatums, straight to re-establishing the son.

    Luke 15:21-24 NIV
    “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
    22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2021
  16. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Yes, and he spotted him from a distance so he was no doubt thinking about and looking out for him every day. The reaction of the elder son is also interesting: "Why doesn't all my loyalty and work for you count more?" It couldn't be clearer that God loves and will be reunited with all even if the older bro thinks that's unjust.
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right. The father ran to meet him.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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  19. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    I haven't but it looks interesting.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I want to say something on Hebrews 9:27.

    It's not saying that judgement comes directly after death. It's saying we die only once, not two or more times like some religions believe. After our earthly life there will be a judgement coming.

    Look at the context:

    Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
    Hebrews 9:26-28
     
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