Are there further chances after death?

[Saint Steven]

I remember when I was little being aware of it. The idea of people being burned alive forever (which I thought didn't make sense). But I don't recall having it rammed down my throat.

Being raised in the church, at a very young age I had the understanding that good people went to heaven and bad people went to hell. Typically described as either "up there", or "down there". Not much focus on the specifics, or even an understanding of what constituted good and bad. Life gets more complicated as you mature with age.

 

[Hmm]

I remember when I was little being aware of it. The idea of people being burned alive forever (which I thought didn't make sense). But I don't recall having it rammed down my throat.

I have found that too. The only reason it came to the fore in my first church was because I was invited there by the evangelist chap (I met him at uni - he specialised in converting students although as I got to know him I realised that he had no actual trophies to show) and I kept raising it as an objection while he was trying to convert me.

Most churches I've been to rarely mention ECT. Although most Christians pay lip service to it, I believe very few people believe in it. The reason I believe that is that if you really did believe nonbelievers were going to hell forever you would feel compelled to convert everyone. You would get completely caught up in the need to do so. Most people don't and it's because they don't really believe it themselves. A few do but don't actually care that most are going to ECT. An example I mean of someone who both believes it and does care about others is a guy in a city Iused to live in, Chester, UK, who was out there everyday preaching on the main street. He was regarded as a kind of landmark and a harmless oddball but I had full respect for him because at least he lived out his faith. He's no longer there, having become ill I believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's another thing I heard as a kid. If a bus bound for heaven went down to hell, no one would want to get on it. That's probably when I stopped being concerned about it.

Wow. What a strange and mildly humorous thing. (on many levels)
1) A bus is public transportation and designed to carry a load of people.
2) If a bus was "bound for heaven", but then ending up in hell, that would be a major navigation problem.
3) Certainly those who got on the bus were misled in terms of its destination.
4) I think C.S. Lewis wrote a book about this. Sort of. The Great Divorce.

 

[Hmm]

That's another thing I heard as a kid. If a bus bound for heaven went down to hell, no one would want to get on it. That's probably when I stopped being concerned about it.

If it was a sightseeing bus though there'd be huge queues for day tickets. A jolly day out!

 

[Saint Steven]

If it was a sightseeing bus though there'd be huge queues for day tickets. A jolly day out!

They might issue oven mitts on boarding. So you don't burn yourself hanging on to the railings. - lol

I remember a carnival ride that was like a wild roller coaster ride down into a hellish subterranean world. You sat in theater seating that actually jostled you back and forth and up and down to make the ride seem more like you were really there. The huge movie screen filled your area of vision. It was a wild ride with breaks in the track that sent you jumping over the lava below. I wanted to go again. - lol

 

[Hmm]

They might issue oven mitts on boarding. So you don't burn yourself hanging on the the railings. - lol

I remember a carnival ride that was like a wild roller coaster ride down into a hellish subterranean world. You sat in theater seating that actually jostled you back and forth and up and down to make the ride seem more like you were really there. The huge movie screen filled your area of vision. It was a wild ride with breaks in the track that sent you jumping over the lava below. I wanted to go again. - lol

In Victorian times, the nobility used to visit "lunatic" asylums and laugh at the circumstances and tormented faces of the people they saw there. It's the same impulse now that creates this weird reluctance to give up ECT.

 

[Saint Steven]

In Victorian times, the nobility used to visit "lunatic" asylums and laugh at the circumstances and tormented faces of the people they saw there. It's the same impulse now that creates this weird reluctance to give up ECT.

Yes. I question the spirit that makes the suffering of others entertainment for us.

And the spirit that would justify hell by blaming the victims. Reminds me of the Nazi death camps. As if the occupants were getting what they deserved somehow.

 

[Der Alte]

[QUOTE="MMXX, post: 76195213, member: 430705"]

Anonymous online posters like yourself.

Unlike some folks I don't give my unsupported opinion but cite scripture and/or quote accredited scholars and grammar and lexical sources.

I'm sure you know the claim is actually what you said earlier in this thread; Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.

Certain heterodox religious groups try to make the Bible say what they want it to by misquoting or quoting scripture out-of-context. E.g. "Psalm 14/53 says 'there is no God.'" What it actually says is "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."
That is not the same as your accusation "those men who put that in a sacred book were wrong in attributing their uderstanding[sic] [of hell] for G-d's."
.....100s of years before Jesus, is Israel there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol, Gehinnom and sheol are translated Gehenna and hades in the 225BC Septuagint and the NT.

 

[Der Alte]

I first went to SS when LBJ was president. I've had a relationship with Jesus since then. I even still have a decoupage picture of Jesus I made in SS. I've never become a member of any denomination. I'm just as comfortable going to a Pentecostal church as a Baptist church. When it comes to the topic of this thread, I'm not 99 and 44/100% sure of the outcome of those who don't accept Jesus in this life. I never really thought much about hell, until a younger close relative started questioning it back around 2007 (when GWB was president). Then I started objectively researching it. I think it's easier to be objective when you're seeking the answer to someone else's question, rather than having a personal stake in the matter. And it was also easier to be objective when digging into it without preconceived notions.

…..Concerning only the existence not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
…..According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated hades and gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, alter or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,
Mentioned 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” certainly does not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

 

[Der Alte]

Are you sure about that test? There's the age old question of what about all those who never had an opportunity to learn about and accept Jesus. Then there are all those who didn't have time because they were struck down at an early age.

I have found that reading the Bible, the whole Bible rather than just a few out-of-context proof texts helps answer all those type questions. What happens to infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those who have never heard the gospel etc?

Romans 4:15
15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.​

 

[Hmm]

I have found that reading the Bible, the whole Bible rather than just a few out-of-context proof texts helps answer all those type questions. What happens to infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those who have never heard the gospel etc?

Romans 4:15
15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.​

At what age does an infant come under the law?

 

[Der Alte]

At what age does an infant come under the law?

I'm sure God has that all figured and will be fair and just when he deals with that situation.

 

[Hmm]

I'm sure God has that all figured and will be fair and just when he deals with that situation.

Ah, I thought you must know because the verses you quoted don't mention "infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those who have never heard the gospel etc?". This may be because the meaning of the verses is that Christ came to replace the Jewish laws so your attempt at defending it by watering it down so that children aren't sent to hell seems misguided.

 

[Der Alte]

Ah, I thought you must know because the verses you quoted don't mention "infants, small children, the mentally challenged, those who have never heard the gospel etc?". This may be because the meaning of the verses is that Christ came to replace the Jewish laws so your attempt at defending it by watering it down so that children aren't sent to hell seems misguided.

Does the group I mentioned have the law? Yes or no? Since they don't have the law there is no sin. Nice try though.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Simply put, Scripture doesn't tell us, and there is no historic dogmatic position in the historic Church on the subject.

The most that can be provided is personal opinion--perhaps informed and biblically reasoned opinion, but still only opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hmm]

Does the group I mentioned have the law? Yes or no? Since they don't have the law there is no sin. Nice try though.

You've lost me I'm afraid. What's the relevance of saying that a kid in New York is not under the old Jewish laws (circumcision, Sabbath observance and the food purity laws)? How does this relate to the topic of second chances after death?

 

[Hmm]

Simply put, Scripture doesn't tell us, and there is no historic dogmatic position in the historic Church on the subject.

The most that can be provided is personal opinion--perhaps informed and biblically reasoned opinion, but still only opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree, we can't know for sure. But, to me anyway, that applies to everything and I would still think that was the case even if the historic church held a dogmatic position on the subject because I don't believe in the infallibility of the church. I respect that others do of course. The bottom line for me anyway is that I would reject a god who allowed ECT.

 

[Der Alte]

You've lost me I'm afraid. What's the relevance of saying that a kid is New York is not under the old Jewish laws (circumcision, Sabbath observance and the food purity laws)? How does this relate to the topic of second chances after death?

Now we are progressing into total silliness. Do small children, infants, the mentally challenged etc. know and understand the law?

 

[Hmm]

Now we are progressing into total silliness

Correct.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Unlike some folks I don't give my unsupported opinion but cite scripture and/or quote accredited scholars and grammar and lexical sources.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you make opinionated comments like a an ordinary person. Like post #192 as the latest example.

Certain heterodox religious groups try to make the Bible say what they want it to by misquoting or quoting scripture out-of-context. E.g. "Psalm 14/53 says 'there is no God.'" What it actually says is "The fool has said in his heart there is no God."
That is not the same as your accusation "those men who put that in a sacred book were wrong in attributing their uderstanding[sic] [of hell] for G-d's."
.....100s of years before Jesus, is Israel there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol, Gehinnom and sheol are translated Gehenna and hades in the 225BC Septuagint and the NT.

Perhaps they had incorporated a certain amount of paganism from their Babylonian captivity. But there certainly isn't anything scriptural to support that.