Are there dispensationalists who believe Paul's gospel is the same as the one preached in Matt-John?

[thomas15]

If you understand the OT, that is not true. The issue of salvation in the OT was vague compared to under Paul's gospel.

Apparently my understanding of the OT, incomplete as it is, is quite a bit more complete than yours. I have searched the OT and cannot find any discussion of Paul or Peter.

Covenant theology, and covenant theologians living in this dispensation read into the actual covenants more than is offered and disregard much of which is actually offered. They do this I think because they want the New Covenant to be an exclusive to the church and to be the overall mechanism that offers salvation. This is why many of them want water baptism to replace circumcision and to make baptism essential or almost essential to salvation. They forget "....not by works least any man boast"

But one aspect is quite clear: the Jews in the OT were not saved individually (unlike us now) , but were saved by being part of the collective Israel.

The concept is clear, it's your application that is incorrect. Salvation and/or saved in either the OT or NT have different meanings depending of the context or the actual word used. Any system that has rules for interpretation will have problem passages to contend with. Go to the Scriptures with an open mind and let context and meaning dictate the message.

 

[Guojing]

Apparently my understanding of the OT, incomplete as it is, is quite a bit more complete than yours. I have searched the OT and cannot find any discussion of Paul or Peter.

Covenant theology, and covenant theologians living in this dispensation read into the actual covenants more than is offered and disregard much of which is actually offered. They do this I think because they want the New Covenant to be an exclusive to the church and to be the overall mechanism that offers salvation. This is why many of them want water baptism to replace circumcision and to make baptism essential or almost essential to salvation. They forget "....not by works least any man boast"



The concept is clear, it's your application that is incorrect. Salvation and/or saved in either the OT or NT have different meanings depending of the context or the actual word used. Any system that has rules for interpretation will have problem passages to contend with. Go to the Scriptures with an open mind and let context and meaning dictate the message.

Some people believe in the concept of Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, where all the OT saints were placed there, until Jesus went to preach to them after his crucifixion. It was only then that they are all saved and place in heaven.

That is the place the thief on the cross went to.

So the conclusion is, none of the OT saints were saved until Jesus. That was why I said salvation in the OT was more vague compared to us now, under the revelation revealed to Paul.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahuweh's Revelation thru His emissary Paul was new to everyone - that heathen pagan dogs, the gentiles, were in Yahuweh's Plan now, through Jesus who brought down the wall between Jews and gentiles also, that gentiles could not be saved - a shock! - to Jews and gentiles both.... never even thought of by the Jews before this.... "the mystery" ... hidden until Yahuweh's Revelation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People are always trying to reach a conclusion, its either they reached that thru what church doctrine they have been taught by others for years, or when they read scripture for themselves to discover what actually went down.

I don't think all people are doing this, nor that they should...
rather, obey Yahuweh and Yahushua = turn to Yahuweh (The Creator) because His Kingdom Is At Hand. Seek Him and His Kingdom and the Truth, and Keep Seeking as He Grants the Grace to do so, and the Truth, Jesus, will be Found, as He Promises.

 

[Guojing]

I don't think all people are doing this, nor that they should...
rather, obey Yahuweh and Yahushua = turn to Yahuweh (The Creator) because His Kingdom Is At Hand. Seek Him and His Kingdom and the Truth, and Keep Seeking as He Grants the Grace to do so, and the Truth, Jesus, will be Found, as He Promises.

You have to know the truth before it can set you free, according to Jesus.

Know is more than just head knowledge

 

[Bramblewild]

There is only one gospel, that if Christ crucified for our sins, and salvation is by grace through faith and not from works, because no one can be made righteous before God by works of the law.

That was the gospel in the times of the Old Testament, that is the gospel now.

Concerning circumcision: that is something Paul dealt with, and did it through Abraham, pointing out that Abraham was declared righteous by faith, not by works, not by circumcision. He did not receive the seal of circumcision until after he was declared righteous.

To add any works to salvation is to go to a dangerous, dangerous place, one that can put a person outside the faith.

 

[Danoh]

There is only one gospel, that if Christ crucified for our sins, and salvation is by grace through faith and not from works, because no one can be made righteous before God by works of the law.

That was the gospel in the times of the Old Testament, that is the gospel now.

Concerning circumcision: that is something Paul dealt with, and did it through Abraham, pointing out that Abraham was declared righteous by faith, not by works, not by circumcision. He did not receive the seal of circumcision until after he was declared righteous.

To add any works to salvation is to go to a dangerous, dangerous place, one that can put a person outside the faith.

Nope, that was not the gospel preached in the OT - this was...

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us TO DO all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe TO DO all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which DOETH those things shall live by them.

Why had that been "the gospel" then?

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Ah, okay...

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But NOW...and WITHOUT The Law...

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Simply put, and as 2 Timothy 2:15-18 makes crystal clear obvious - in Scripture, things that differ are not...the same.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To add any works to salvation is to go to a dangerous, dangerous place, one that can put a person outside the faith.

The Ekklesia in the OT and NT and throughout history did not add works to salvation.

They simply did the good works Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Prepared for them all to do, daily.

If someone , like in Galatians, tried to add works to salvation, Yahuweh had a message delivered to the Ekklesia to protect them from the deceivers, and to the deceived ones so that they might repent of their sin and turn to Yahuweh and start doing what is right.

 

[Guojing]

There is only one gospel, that if Christ crucified for our sins, and salvation is by grace through faith and not from works, because no one can be made righteous before God by works of the law.

That was the gospel in the times of the Old Testament, that is the gospel now.

You mean Abel, when he made a more excellent sacrifice, put his faith that the animal he was sacrificing represents Christ, the Son of God?

You mean Rahab, when she hid the spies, she believe that one day the God of the Jews will be sending his Son to die for her sins?

 

[Bramblewild]

Romans 10
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “ or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

If a person think that he can make yourself righteous by works of the law, then he is not truly seeing himself as he really are. As Romans 10:5 says, the person who wants to be righteous by works of the law must keep the law. That person must keep all of the law, and he must keep it perfectly, from conception to grave.

Outside of Christ, no one has done that.

Thus, salvation was never by works, never by keeping the law, because man cannot keep the law. As Christ himself said, "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". If that's the standard, then on our own we've failed before we even knew what was going on.

Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The only way to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect is for that same heavenly Father to give us his own righteousness. That is what God offers to us. It is a gift, not a wage. It is given to us by faith, not earned by us by our works.

And, yes, even the Old Testament spoke of it, even as early as the fall in Genesis.

 

[Guojing]

Thus, salvation was never by works, never by keeping the law, because man cannot keep the law. As Christ himself said, "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect". If that's the standard, then on our own we've failed before we even knew what was going on.

And, yes, even the Old Testament spoke of it, even as early as the fall in Genesis.

No one is saying salvation is ever by works. It was always by grace thru faith.

But in the OT, you show faith by believing God and obeying what God instructs you to do.

Thus Abel, he believe in God by offering the correct sacrifice. Cain did not. God reminded Cain very clearly in Genesis 4

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God is reminding Cain that Abel was accepted because he "did well" meaning he offered an animal. He is giving a second chance to Cain by telling him what the correct sin offering is.

Some translation even showed that the word "sin" in verse 7 actually meant sin offering. God is providing an animal at the door of Cain place, he just need to take the sacrifice and offer it, and God will accept him. Of course Cain did not do that and chose to murder Abel instead.

Abel did not become righteous by putting his faith in Jesus like us, he showed faith by obeying God by offering the right sacrifice. He showed his faith by following that particular set of instructions.

Now God instructs us to believe in Jesus and rest from our works, and he will accept us. Just like Abel, we show our faith by following that particular set of instructions.

 

[Bramblewild]

Abel did not become righteous by putting his faith in Jesus like us, he showed faith by obeying God by offering the right sacrifice. He showed his faith by following that particular set of instructions.

Abel could not have become righteous by obeying, because no man can become righteous by obeying; rather, he obeyed because he was righteous.

And faith will produce works, but we still must be careful in how we say what produces what: faith produces works, not the other way around. We do not work to earn God's love and acceptance, because that is a hopeless situation for fallen and sinful people like us; rather, we love God because he first loved us, we can do works that are acceptable to God because has already accepted us, because he has already forgiven us and made us righteous.

 

[Guojing]

Abel did not become righteous by putting his faith in Jesus like us, he showed faith by obeying God by offering the right sacrifice. He showed his faith by following that particular set of instructions.

Abel could not have become righteous by obeying, because no man can become righteous by obeying; rather, he obeyed because he was righteous.

And faith will produce works, but we still must be careful in how we say what produces what: faith produces works, not the other way around. We do not work to earn God's love and acceptance, because that is a hopeless situation for fallen and sinful people like us; rather, we love God because he first loved us, we can do works that are acceptable to God because has already accepted us, because he has already forgiven us and made us righteous.

Do you even read what I quoted in Genesis 4:7 before rattling off your knowledge of the gospel revealed to Paul?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Did God tell Cain "If thou believe well, you will be accepted?" He is telling Cain to "do well", in order to be accepted.

Even Hebrews 11 made it clear

4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

No where in the passage does one read by faith Abel believed God period. He showed his faith, his belief by offering the God the sacrifice that God required, and God approved of it, probably by sending down fire to burn up the animal sacrifice.

I am beginning to realise that the concept of progressive revelation is difficult to understand for many believers.

They cannot help but to think that the secret and the mysteries revealed to Paul by the ascended Christ, are also understood by everyone else, even those born way before Saul even existed.

It’s like asking a fish to explain what water is. They simply can’t.

 

[Bramblewild]

Hebrews 11 proves the point I'm trying to make: By faith Abel and all the other people mentioned in that chapter did what they did. It is the same point Paul was trying to make in Romans regarding Abraham: Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

You cannot look to the Old Testament to claim some kind of works-based righteousness, because it's not there. Hebrews 11 proves that even as far back as Abel, people were approved by God through faith.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

 

[Guojing]

Hebrews 11 proves the point I'm trying to make: By faith Abel and all the other people mentioned in that chapter did what they did. It is the same point Paul was trying to make in Romans regarding Abraham: Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

You cannot look to the Old Testament to claim some kind of works-based righteousness, because it's not there. Hebrews 11 proves that even as far back as Abel, people were approved by God through faith.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

So if Abel merely believed God but did not offer the correct sacrifice, would that be enough for him to be justified?

Offering an animal sacrifice is costly in terms of economic benefits.

Likewise, in the age to come, when someone in the Tribulation believes in Jesus but decided to take the mark because he needs to buy food to eat, is he justified before God?

 

[Bramblewild]

So if Abel merely believed God but did not offer the correct sacrifice, would that be enough for him to be justified?

Yes.

The Bible couldn't be clearer--we are not justified by works. No one, at any time, has been justified by works.

Abel's sacrifice was better because it was offered by faith, which even Hebrews 11 states.

 

[Guojing]

So if Abel merely believed God but did not offer the correct sacrifice, would that be enough for him to be justified?

Yes.

The Bible couldn't be clearer--we are not justified by works. No one, at any time, has been justified by works.

Abel's sacrifice was better because it was offered by faith, which even Hebrews 11 states.

Haha, okay at least you are confident enough to state that, I respect that conviction of yours.

 

[Bramblewild]

What is so strange about what I wrote?

Abel was born fallen and sinful, just like the rest of humanity after the Fall. The things the Bible says about humanity as a whole--that all have sinned and come up short of the glory of God, that there are none that do good--were true of Abel.

How could any man who is a sinner hope to do any work that would make him justified in God's sight?

If us being justified in God's sight depended in any way on our works, or in any way on our own law-keeping, then we are truly hopeless, because we could not perform those works or keep those laws. That is true of everyone, even Abel.

That's why it's all by faith. It's all based on Christ's life and death and resurrection. It's why Christ himself said "This is the work of the Father, that you believe one him whom he has sent" (John 6:29).

So, yes, Abel was justified simply by believing, because he could not in any way have been justified by works. Let him have offered a mountain of animals, and none of it would have justified him one bit.

 

[Guojing]

What is so strange about what I wrote?

Abel was born fallen and sinful, just like the rest of humanity after the Fall. The things the Bible says about humanity as a whole--that all have sinned and come up short of the glory of God, that there are none that do good--were true of Abel.

How could any man who is a sinner hope to do any work that would make him justified in God's sight?

If us being justified in God's sight depended in any way on our works, or in any way on our own law-keeping, then we are truly hopeless, because we could not perform those works or keep those laws. That is true of everyone, even Abel.

That's why it's all by faith. It's all based on Christ's life and death and resurrection. It's why Christ himself said "This is the work of the Father, that you believe one him whom he has sent" (John 6:29).

So, yes, Abel was justified simply by believing, because he could not in any way have been justified by works. Let him have offered a mountain of animals, and none of it would have justified him one bit.

What about the Tribulation scenario?

Likewise, in the age to come, when someone in the Tribulation believes in Jesus but decided to take the mark because he needs to buy food to eat, is he justified before God?

 

[Bramblewild]

What about the Tribulation scenario?

Likewise, in the age to come, when someone in the Tribulation believes in Jesus but decided to take the mark because he needs to buy food to eat, is he justified before God?

There is a principle of biblical interpretation that I think is wise. It goes something like this: clear passages of scripture help us to understand and interpret unclear passages.

"Justification can never be attained or earned by works" is based on clear biblical passages, some I've tried to point out in earlier comments.

I'm not going to try to answer all of your questions for you; rather, I'm going to point out this interpretation principle, just as I've tried to point out this truth about justification.

Now, use this interpretation tool, and look at the questions you have in light of "justification is only be faith".

And let me say one more thing, please: try to avoid reading things into the biblical accounts that simply aren't there. For example, the account of Abel's sacrifice in Genesis doesn't say that God sent fire from heaven.