Are there any survivors after the Great Tribulation

[Douggg]

Even common sense tells us this: the seals are on a book or scroll with CANNOT BE OPENED until all 7 years are opened or broken. Then, after the 7th seal is broken so the scroll can be opened, THEN we know what is inside: the trumpet judgments and vial judgments: indeed the rest of the book.

Find a specific passage(s) in Revelation that Jesus has not removed the seals - to support your position... and present it. It plainly states Jesus opened the seals. I really don't understand what you are trying to communicate. Try repackaging your intent, because it is really unclear to me, and is not making any sense.

Jesus was found to be the only one in heaven worthy to open the sealed book.

All of the seals of the book were removed by Jesus as John was shown what was in the book as well as them who were in heaven - to reveal what was in the book. The events have not begun yet. When they do begin, they will occur on a seven year timeline, until the day Jesus returns to this earth.

Revelation 6:
1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

[Douggg]

This seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL to make disciples of all nations.

How do you know that unless the seal was opened on the book by Jesus to know what it contained? What I am asking of you is acknowledgement that Jesus opened the seals already. What is represented by each seal is a separate issue.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, Dougg, but this is simply not the intent of the Author. If you wish to know:

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

What you have written about will be proven wrong. You are messing with God's own chronology.

What does the word chronology mean to you?

 

[iamlamad]

NO.................

No...what? You think you CAN pull a verse out of its context and make it say what you want?

Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father, when John first looked into the throne room - yet we have a dozen verses telling us He should be there - and Stephen SAW Him there.
Next, Jesus was NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy to break the seals: that is why John was weeping.

So WHY was Jesus not there? WHY was Jesus not found in that first search?
Because at that moment in time (a vision of the past) Jesus was still on earth or under the earth.

But SUDDENLY:

Rev, 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Now what time is it? Jesus has just ascended and the Holy Spirit has just been sent down.

TIME? Around 32 or 33 AD.

Try to find 2000 years after verse 6 and before chapter 6......it is NOT THERE.

 

[iamlamad]

What does the word chronology mean to you?

1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7: sequence: numbering for sequence.
Woe 1
Woe 2
Woe 3
Numbered for sequence.
It seems your theories force you to rearrange John's amazing book. But when these things begin to take place, you will find they will happen just the way John wrote them.

In other words, in general (not counting parentheses) the events in one chapter will ALWAYS happen before the events of a later chapter and after the events of previous chapters. In other words, all seals opened first, then all trumpets sounded, and finally all vials poured out.

 

[iamlamad]

How do you know that unless the seal was opened on the book by Jesus to know what it contained? What I am asking of you is acknowledgement that Jesus opened the seals already. What is represented by each seal is a separate issue.

It is the timing of the CONTEXT. That would be Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. That is chapter 5. The first seal, chapter 6. You cannot find 2000 years hidden anywhere between those verses or in those verses. In fact, the very first hint of a long wait is at the 5th seal. Therefore seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

Did I answer your question?

 

[Douggg]

1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7: sequence: numbering for sequence.
Woe 1
Woe 2
Woe 3
Numbered for sequence.
It seems our theories force you to rearrange John's amazing book. But when these things begin to take place, you will find they will happen just the way John wrote them.

In other words, in general (not counting parentheses) the events in one chapter will ALWAYS happen before the events of a later chapter and after the events of previous chapters. In other words, all seals opened first, then all trumpets sounded, and finally all vials poured out.

No that is not chronology. What you are describing is numerical order.

Lamad, chronology is sequence according to date, or other unit of time, which could be represented by a timeline.

Chronology is not sequence as to presentation. Now is could be, in some cases, the sequence of the presentation is also in Chronological order. But that is not the case in Revelation.

I think, if I understand you correctly, is you believe that sequence of events take place according to the order of presentation? That is, events in Chapter 11 take place before the events of Chapter 12. And the events in Chapter 12 take place before the events of Chapter 13.... and so on ?


.

 

[ver 2-10]

Are there any survivors after the Great Tribulation

Yes of course, else there wouldn't be any one to populate New Jerusalem.

 

[iamlamad]

No that is not chronology. What you are describing is numerical order.

Lamad, chronology is sequence according to date, or other unit of time, which could be represented by a timeline.

Chronology is not sequence as to presentation. Now is could be, in some cases, the sequence of the presentation is also in Chronological order. But that is not the case in Revelation.

I think, if I understand you correctly, is you believe that sequence of events take place according to the order of presentation? That is, events in Chapter 11 take place before the events of Chapter 12. And the events in Chapter 12 take place before the events of Chapter 13.... and so on ?
.

Yes, it IS chronology for the book of Revelation. My point was, they were numbered for sequencing because that is the order they will happen when they happen: i.e. chronology. In other words, seal 2 will not be opened before seal one, etc. John's sequencing IS his chronology.

Yes, you are right: sequencing is according to presentation as I wrote:
In other words, in general (not counting parentheses) the events in one chapter will ALWAYS happen before the events of a later chapter and after the events of previous chapters. In other words, all seals opened first, then all trumpets sounded, and finally all vials poured out.

For an example of a parenthesis, look at 12:1-5. That was a look back in time to Christ's birth. But it is presented in chapter 12 which is a midpoint chapter.

But that is not the case in Revelation.

You will find it VERY difficult to prove that.

 

[iamlamad]

Find a specific passage(s) in Revelation that Jesus has not removed the seals - to support your position... and present it. It plainly states Jesus opened the seals. I really don't understand what you are trying to communicate. Try repackaging your intent, because it is really unclear to me, and is not making any sense.

Jesus was found to be the only one in heaven worthy to open the sealed book.

All of the seals of the book were removed by Jesus as John was shown what was in the book as well as them who were in heaven - to reveal what was in the book. The events have not begun yet. When they do begin, they will occur on a seven year timeline, until the day Jesus returns to this earth.

Revelation 6:
1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Yes, John saw each seal removed IN A VISION. Does that mean all were removed in 95 AD when John saw it? No, in a vision the timing could be past, present or future. We must examine each seal in its context to determine if it was opened or is still to be opened.

So if we examine the first seal, the context of that seal is chapters 4 & 5. And when we examine this context, we see the real time in the vision is around 32 AD when Jesus ascended back into heaven, and sent the Holy Spirit down. Therefore the only real conclusion one could draw about the first seal is that Jesus broke that seal as soon as He got the scroll or book into His hands, 32 or 33 AD.

As I said, we cannot find 2000 years anywhere there, and not even between the first few seals. Therefore I conclude that seals 1 through 5 are already opened and those events have been ongoing since then.

Seal one is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world.
Seals 2,3 and 4 are to represent the devil trying to stop the advance of the church.

We don't see any hint of a time of waiting until we get to seal 5. And we have been waiting almost 2000 years now.

Sorry, but you are mistaken: the seals are outside of the 7 years. Examine seal 7 closely: does it not seem like perhaps the opening bell? There is 30 minutes of silence.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, John saw each seal removed IN A VISION. Does that mean all were removed in 95 AD when John saw it? No, in a vision the timing could be past, present or future. We must examine each seal in its context to determine if it was opened or is still to be opened.

The seals have to had been opened in order know what they contained. The context is what goes on a timeline in chronology order.

People, in conversation, may say the second seal has not been opened yet, for example. What they are really meaning is the events of the second seal have not begun yet. It is just a flaw in how people use words. They say something, but the choice of words they use don't actually convey what they actually mean.

 

[Douggg]

For an example of a parenthesis, look at 12:1-5. That was a look back in time to Christ's birth. But it is presented in chapter 12 which is a midpoint chapter.

lamad, who is the woman in Revelation 12 ?

 

[iamlamad]

The seals have to had been opened in order know what they contained. The context is what goes on a timeline in chronology order.

People, in conversation, may say the second seal has not been opened yet, for example. What they are really meaning is the events of the second seal have not begun yet. It is just a flaw in how people use words. They say something, but the choice of words they use don't actually convey what they actually mean.

Yes, this is true. In a vision, anything can happen! Of course the seals can be opened in a vision when they are still not opened in reality. That would be a prophetic vision, which is what much of Revelation is. We know what seal 6 is, that is what will happen, ahead of time, before it is reality.

I am convinced, when a seal is opened in reality, the events will follow quickly. When Jesus opens that 6th seal, the earthquake will take place immediately.

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, who is the woman in Revelation 12 ?

The woman is to represent ISRAEL. After all, Mary was a Jewish girl. And Jesus was a Jew. Of course the Messiah had to come from the lineage of David, so of course from Israel.
And in 12:6 the "woman" will that that part of Israel that follows Jesus command to flee when they see the abomination.

 

[Riberra]

The woman is to represent ISRAEL. After all, Mary was a Jewish girl. And Jesus was a Jew. Of course the Messiah had to come from the lineage of David, so of course from Israel.
And in 12:6 the "woman" will that that part of Israel that follows Jesus command to flee when they see the abomination.

Here that part of Israel of the end times called the "Woman" who will flee in the wilderness ...
Revelation 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

that follows Jesus command to flee when they see the abomination.

They will know that the "man" who have killed the 2 witnesses is the Beast who come out of the bottomless pit ....the Little Horn...the man of sin the son of perdition...Abaddon the Angel of the bottomless pit....the one who shall go into perdition into the lake of fire with the false prophet.

Revelation 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, AND GO INTO PERDITION: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 19:20
20 And the BEAST was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Another Lazarus]

The majority of the world is still relatively at Peace now, including your nation where you can live in abundancy and no people kill you.

You havent seen people killing each other on the street everywhere.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another.

At this moment, the period of grace, you can sit down at your table and have a good meal and wine without having to worry about murders, in the tribulation, it will be no more, people will thrill every second for the sound of murders shall be everywhere as the PEACE is removed from mankind.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[Another Lazarus]

They will know that the "man" who have killed the 2 witnesses is the Beast who come out of the bottomless pit ....the Little Horn...the man of sin the son of perdition...Abaddon the Angel of the bottomless pit...

Abaddon was the fallen angel who copulated with women and was captured and chained into the bottomless pit at the time of Henoch. read the book of Henoch, this angel will then possess the antichrist to do the abomination.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[Another Lazarus]

Therefore I conclude that seals 1 through 5 are already opened and those events have been ongoing since then.

There are 2 riders of white horse in Revelation,
Jesus is depicted here :
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

While antichrist is depicted here : making fake peace, bow without arrows is the symbol of peace.
Dan 8:25 ..........and by peace shall destroy many
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

Cant you see the difference of the two horse riders ?

Please note that antichrist shall give the world a short fake Peace by the opening of the 1st seal so the world will say Peace Peace !
and suddenly the 2nd seal is opened and global sudden destruction !

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[Douggg]

The woman is to represent ISRAEL. After all, Mary was a Jewish girl. And Jesus was a Jew. Of course the Messiah had to come from the lineage of David, so of course from Israel.
And in 12:6 the "woman" will that that part of Israel that follows Jesus command to flee when they see the abomination.

Yes, the woman is Israel. So why can't we put a heading on chapter 12 to describe it as the seventieth week relevant to Israel?

You call 12:1-5 as a parenthesis because you read Revelation 6-19 as straight through. I call 12:1-5 as introductory, to show who the woman is in the rest of Revelation 12. 12:6 the 1260 days would be the first half of the seven years, and 12:14 the time, times, half times would be the second half of the seven years. As a whole, Revelation 12 covers the seven years, the seventieth week.

 

[miknik5]

Yes, the woman is Israel. So why can't we put a heading on chapter 12 to describe it as the seventieth week relevant to Israel?

You call 12:1-5 as a parenthesis because you read Revelation 6-19 as straight through. I call 12:1-5 as introductory, to show who the woman is in the rest of Revelation 12. 12:6 the 1260 days would be the first half of the seven years, and 12:14 the time, times, half times would be the second half of the seven years. As a whole, Revelation 12 covers the seven years, the seventieth week.

Why can't we just call it the sign of THE SON of MAN