Are there any kinds of births in heaven?

[Kenny'sID]

Then removing the seas would basically have been meaningless. Some speculate that God wants more dry land for all the saved people to be able to use.

More land makes perfect sense to me, as a matter of fact, that's what I always thought was the reason

Scripture is better for proving things rather what we think makes sense.

Yet you have no scripture to prove the following.

I believe it means animals have no afterlife or resurrection.

It appears to me it is much more likely the passage is talking about the here and now, and has nothing to do with heaven, and it also appears common sense is all we have to decide, as the bible doesn't even hint that has a thing to do with heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

It appears to me it is much more likely the passage is talking about the here and now, and has nothing to do with heaven, and it also appears common sense is all we have to decide, as the bible doesn't even hint that has a thing to do with heaven.

It has to do with what happens after something dies. Man's spirit goes up but animal spirits go down. That has everything to do with heaven.

 

[NomNomPizza]

I believe it means animals have no afterlife or resurrection.





Then removing the seas would basically have been meaningless. Some speculate that God wants more dry land for all the saved people to be able to use.




Scripture is better for proving things rather what we think makes sense. Marriage won't even exist in the eternity which means no dating, girlfriends and the like so no romance (as we know it) etc. No animals doesn't seem too strange really. It's going to be a new Earth not the same thing which means big changes.

But there are alredy animals in heaven currently

 

[ewq1938]

But there are alredy animals in heaven currently

Not any Earthly animals that have died.

 

[NomNomPizza]

Not any Earthly animals that have died.

True
can't God just create more animals from scratch tho?

 

[ewq1938]

True
can't God just create more animals from scratch tho?

Sure but I think the point is to see if God actually says he will do that.

Are there actual animals as we think of them in heaven now? No. There are some heavenly type of beings and the Lamb but none are literal animals as we think of them.

Will there be animals on the new Earth? I don't see any evidence of it. I think fish and other sealife are mainly gone, at least salt water types and that's millions if not billions of species.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It has to do with what happens after something dies. Man's spirit goes up but animal spirits go down. That has everything to do with heaven.

Exactly, and no one dies in Heaven, so you make a great point there, as in how can the scripture possibly be intended for any age but this one where people die?

You convinced me.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Are there actual animals as we think of them in heaven now? No. There are some heavenly type of beings and the Lamb but none are literal animals as we think of them.

That's true, there are no animals in heaven right now. The Bible also doesn't say that animals got an afterlife, nor does it say that animals participate in the resurrection.
Yet we got Paul saying that "all creation waits in eager expectation" for Jesus' return, and why would the animals wait if they just vanish out of existence, if they got "nothing out of it"?
I've worked with animals and raised them, and I can tell you that God put a lot of effort into them. Animals do have feelings. Knowing God and His love for His creation I am very well capable of imagining that He is able to preserve the spirits of the animals to transfer them into "new bodies" on the new earth.

Will there be animals on the new Earth? I don't see any evidence of it. I think fish and other sealife are mainly gone, at least salt water types and that's millions if not billions of species.

How small is your God?! My God is able to turn salt water fish into sweet water fish without problem. If there are whales on this earth then there will be whales on the new earth as well. Don't get a heart attack, please, but there will even be dinosaurs on the new earth. For it is written:
"He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true"".

"Everything" means everything. A new Creation. A Creation as God has planned it originally. That includes all the species and kinds that exist and have ever existed on this earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Yet we got Paul saying that "all creation waits in eager expectation" for Jesus' return, and why would the animals wait if they just vanish out of existence, if they got "nothing out of it"?

I don't believe Paul ever suggested that animals were waiting for anything.

I've worked with animals and raised them, and I can tell you that God put a lot of effort into them. Animals do have feelings. Knowing God and His love for His creation I am very well capable of imagining that He is able to preserve the spirits of the animals to transfer them into "new bodies" on the new earth.

People can believe in whatever they want but where is the scripture evidence behind this?

How small is your God?!

We have the same God.

My God is able to turn salt water fish into sweet water fish without problem. If there are whales on this earth then there will be whales on the new earth as well. Don't get a heart attack, please, but there will even be dinosaurs on the new earth.

I don't believe there will be any dinosaurs on the new Earth nor that any scripture suggests that.

For it is written:
"He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true"".

"Everything" means everything. A new Creation. A Creation as God has planned it originally. That includes all the species and kinds that exist and have ever existed on this earth.

I don't believe you are interpreting that verse correctly.

 

[NomNomPizza]

Sure but I think the point is to see if God actually says he will do that.

Are there actual animals as we think of them in heaven now? No. There are some heavenly type of beings and the Lamb but none are literal animals as we think of them.

Will there be animals on the new Earth? I don't see any evidence of it. I think fish and other sealife are mainly gone, at least salt water types and that's millions if not billions of species.

We're told God gonna create new heaven and earth and that Lion will eat grass tho

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I don't believe Paul ever suggested that animals
were waiting for anything.

Perhaps you start at Romans 8 then

We have the same God.

Well, what you've said so far doesn't sound at all like the God I got to know over the last years. Just look out of the window, and then tell me again that God will create a new universe without animals. Do you not see God's love for variety and for living creatures? Do you not understand that God created millions of different insects that are too small for most humans to notice because He rejoices in them?

I don't believe there will be any dinosaurs on the new Earth nor that any scripture suggests that.

I am not surprised you don't believe it, lol.

I don't believe you are interpreting that verse correctly.

I'm not interpreting anything. That's literally what it says.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, what you've said so far doesn't sound at all like the God I got to know over the last years. Just look out of the window, and then tell me again that God will create a new universe without animals.

How much of the current universe has animals?

Do you not see God's love for variety and for living creatures? Do you not understand that God created millions of different insects that are too small for most humans to notice because He rejoices in them?

I believe the first and main reasons for animals were for food and helpmeets. Man needed animals on small farms to survive. In time man took some strictly as pets and companionship beyond what a wife and family provided. I think all of that will be different and/or not even exist in the new Earth.

I'm not interpreting anything. That's literally what it says.

Paul wasn't talking about animals in that verse. He was speaking of all of creation in general not specifically created animals. ie: the old Earth groans to become the new Earth...non-literally.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I believe the first and main reasons for animals were for food and helpmeets. Man needed animals on small farms to survive. In time man took some strictly as pets and companionship beyond what a wife and family provided. I think all of that will be different and/or not even exist in the new Earth.

If the first and main reason for animals was for food, why did God not create just farm animals? What are birds for? What are fish for? Why is there such an abundance of variety of animals that humans cannot make use of? And why did God forbid to eat certain animals, why are some unclean? You know how well pigs are suited for food, why did God not allow it if He created animals for food?

Then look at Genesis 2:19. It says of God after He created the animals:
"He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name".
The first thing God does after creating the animals is making sure they are named. Naming something applies value to it. Adam didn't name the plants, but the animals. Plants were for food, but the animals were named. God didn't create the animals to be mere food only.

Next take a look at Genesis 7:
God saved 8 people from the Flood, but thousands of animals. Not a single animal went extinct by the Flood. That's how important they are to God. If animals were just for food, why would God let Noah work so incredibly hard building a giant boat and feed all animals for some 310 days, instead of just letting him deal with the "important" ones, the farming animals?

Paul wasn't talking about animals in that verse. He was speaking of all of creation in general not specifically created animals. ie: the old Earth groans to become the new Earth...non-literally.

Let's read it together:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

I don't manage to see "the creature" as plants or rocks. In the Bible "creatures" are always humans and animals.
It also says "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit". Does this sound familiar? This is referring to Genesis 1 where the Spirit is the difference between man and animal. In other words: "not only the animals, but also we who are only different because we got the Spirit".

Eccl 3:19-21
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
KJV


Man's spirit goes up to heaven, but the spirit of animals go downward. It's God's way. I trust that God knows what's best.

The only mention of an animal in the eternity chapters of Revelation is the Lamb, which is Jesus Christ and not a literal lamb.

Here is what my Bible says (Ecc 3:19-21):

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Do you notice how the last sentence is a question and not a statement? All go to the same place, and we're not entitled to decide which spirit goes where.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't manage to see "the creature" as plants or rocks.

The Greek word can mean anything that has been created, including plants and rocks.

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
Total KJV occurrences: 19

In the Bible "creatures" are always humans and animals.

Not always.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Creature and creation here is the same exact Greek word.

Here is what my Bible says (Ecc 3:19-21):

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Do you notice how the last sentence is a question and not a statement? All go to the same place, and we're not entitled to decide which spirit goes where.

We do know the spirit of man goes up but not the spirit of animals. There are no spirits of dead animals up in heaven.

 

[returntosender]

If the first and main reason for animals was for food, why did God not create just farm animals? What are birds for? What are fish for? Why is there such an abundance of variety of animals that humans cannot make use of? And why did God forbid to eat certain animals, why are some unclean? You know how well pigs are suited for food, why did God not allow it if He created animals for food?

Then look at Genesis 2:19. It says of God after He created the animals:
"He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name".
The first thing God does after creating the animals is making sure they are named. Naming something applies value to it. Adam didn't name the plants, but the animals. Plants were for food, but the animals were named. God didn't create the animals to be mere food only.

Next take a look at Genesis 7:
God saved 8 people from the Flood, but thousands of animals. Not a single animal went extinct by the Flood. That's how important they are to God. If animals were just for food, why would God let Noah work so incredibly hard building a giant boat and feed all animals for some 310 days, instead of just letting him deal with the "important" ones, the farming animals?


Let's read it together:

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

I don't manage to see "the creature" as plants or rocks. In the Bible "creatures" are always humans and animals.
It also says "not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit". Does this sound familiar? This is referring to Genesis 1 where the Spirit is the difference between man and animal. In other words: "not only the animals, but also we who are only different because we got the Spirit".



Here is what my Bible says (Ecc 3:19-21):

"Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Do you notice how the last sentence is a question and not a statement? All go to the same place, and we're not entitled to decide which spirit goes where.

Now that's what I am talking about!

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

We do know the spirit of man goes up but not the spirit of animals. There are no spirits of dead animals up in heaven.

Any verse for that?

 

[ewq1938]

Any verse for that?

It's the opposite, no spirits of dead animals are mentioned in heaven, in fact no resurrection is mentioned for animals anywhere in the bible.

Who knows the spirit of man goes up and the spirits of an animal goes down? I do.


Clark:

While it was said in verse 19, they have all one breath, i.e., the man and the beast live the same kind of animal life; in this verse, a proper distinction is made between the ??? ruach, or soul of man, and the ??? ruach, or soul of the beast: the one goeth upwards, the other goeth downwards. The literal translation of these important words is this: "Who considereth the ??? ruach) immortal spirit of the sons of Adam, which ascendeth? it is from above; (??? ????? hi lemalah); and the spirit or breath of the cattle which descendeth? it is downwards unto the earth," i.e., it tends to the earth only.

Gill:

Ecc 3:21 - Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward?.... There is indeed a difference between a man and a beast; though they have one breath, they have not one spirit or soul; man has a rational and immortal soul, which, when he dies, goes upwards to God that gave it; to be judged by him, and disposed of by him, in its proper apartment, until the day of the resurrection of the body;

and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? when the beast dies, its spirit goes down to the earth, from whence it came, and is resolved into it, and is no more. But who is it that sees, or can see and know with the eyes of his body, the difference of these two spirits, or the ascent of the one, and the descent of the other?

Henry:

And Solomon here observes that all go unto one place; the dead bodies of men and beasts putrefy alike; all are of the dust, in their original, for we see all turn to dust again in their corruption. What little reason then have we to be proud of our bodies, or any bodily accomplishments, when they must not only be reduced to the earth very shortly, but must be so in common with the beasts, and we must mingle our dust with theirs! [2.] As to their spirits there is indeed a vast difference, but not a visible one, Ecc_3:21. It is certain that the spirit of the sons of men at death is ascending; it goes upwards to the Father of spirits, who made it, to the world of spirits to which it is allied; it dies not with the body, but is redeemed from the power of the grave, Psa_49:15. It goes upwards to be judged and determined to an unchangeable state. It is certain that the spirit of the beast goes downwards to the earth; it dies with the body; it perishes and is gone at death. The soul of a beast is, at death, like a candle blown out - there is an end of it; whereas the soul of a man is then like a candle taken out of a dark lantern, which leaves the lantern useless indeed, but does itself shine brighter.

JFB:

Ecc 3:21 - Who knoweth--Not doubt of the destination of man's spirit (Ecc_12:7); but "how few, by reason of the outward mortality to which man is as liable as the beast and which is the ground of the skeptic's argument, comprehend the wide difference between man and the beast" (Isa_53:1). The Hebrew expresses the difference strongly, "The spirit of man that ascends, it belongeth to on high; but the spirit of the beast that descends, it belongeth to below, even to the earth." Their destinations and proper element differ utterly [WEISS].

 

[returntosender]

The Greek word can mean anything that has been created, including plants and rocks.

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
Total KJV occurrences: 19






Not always.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Creature and creation here is the same exact Greek word.







We do know the spirit of man goes up but not the spirit of animals. There are no spirits of dead animals up in heaven.

The Greek word can mean anything that has been created, including plants and rocks.

G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
Total KJV occurrences: 19






Not always.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Creature and creation here is the same exact Greek word.







We do know the spirit of man goes up but not the spirit of animals. There are no spirits of dead animals up in heaven.

"There are no spirits of dead animals up in heaven."

We don't know that do we?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

It's the opposite, no spirits of dead animals are mentioned in heaven, in fact no resurrection is mentioned for animals anywhere in the bible.

Who knows the spirit of man goes up and the spirits of an animal goes down? I do.

As I said earlier, a resurrection is not needed.
The Bible doesn't say there are spirits of dead animals in heaven. The Bible doesn't say there are no spirits of dead animals in heaven. Can't use that as an argument.
If you believe to know it though then so be it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe it means animals have no afterlife or resurrection.

I got my reply a bit mixed up, so when I followed that with you have no scripture to prove that, you actually may have. I have always thought our animals have no soul, and when they are gone, they are gone. My take on that now is, its still possible we could have our animals back, but I'm not counting on it.

My main point was, animals on the new earth, newly created animals, I have every reason to believe they will flourish, or at the very least, I have no reason at all to believe they will not.

On our pets, and though we would like to at least remember them forever, God has a different idea on that, as he will cause us to forget all of that, so at least the sorrow won't be there for them, the next best thing to having them back.