Are There Any Acceptable Prayers for the Dead?

[jinc1019]

Let me first start out by saying that I don't believe in (or am talking about here) purgatory or the intercession of the dead.

Now to the question at hand:

I realize the Westminster Confession specifically (and very briefly) rejects prayers for the dead, but the scriptural references there all seem to deal with the idea of purgatory or with changing one's situation in the afterlife (from hell to heaven). Are there any acceptable prayers for the dead, however, that do not violate any of these principles?

The following were some things I thought of:

1. Praying that the saints in heaven enjoy their rest and are no longer suffering.

2. Praying to God with hope that a deceased person died in faith: "God, we pray with hope that (person's name) left this world with faith, according to your holy plan."

I realize one could argue neither prayer is really necessary because all saints will receive rest in heaven and a person who has died either did or did not have faith, and praying now about it won't help a person in hell rise to heaven. However, you could just as easily say the whole business of prayer then is useless because God's plan will be accomplished regardless of our prayers. Likewise, you could just as easily say praying, "God, we pray that whatever your will is will be accomplished," etc., because, of course, God's will WILL be done.

It seems that the earliest Christians most certainly practiced some form of prayers for the dead, and I think it is a great error to throw that very ancient practice out of the church because of purgatory and other errors.

Thoughts on this? Have any Reformed writers spoken of this? All the sources I have found speak to the issue of purgatory.

 

[RC1970]

I think that the best thing would be to pray that the Lord would give YOU peace concerning the final state of those who have passed.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Let me first start out by saying that I don't believe in (or am talking about here) purgatory or the intercession of the dead.

Now to the question at hand:

I realize the Westminster Confession specifically (and very briefly) rejects prayers for the dead, but the scriptural references there all seem to deal with the idea of purgatory or with changing one's situation in the afterlife (from hell to heaven). Are there any acceptable prayers for the dead, however, that do not violate any of these principles?

The following were some things I thought of:

1. Praying that the saints in heaven enjoy their rest and are no longer suffering.

2. Praying to God with hope that a deceased person died in faith: "God, we pray with hope that (person's name) left this world with faith, according to your holy plan."

I realize one could argue neither prayer is really necessary because all saints will receive rest in heaven and a person who has died either did or did not have faith, and praying now about it won't help a person in hell rise to heaven. However, you could just as easily say the whole business of prayer then is useless because God's plan will be accomplished regardless of our prayers. Likewise, you could just as easily say praying, "God, we pray that whatever your will is will be accomplished," etc., because, of course, God's will WILL be done.

It seems that the earliest Christians most certainly practiced some form of prayers for the dead, and I think it is a great error to throw that very ancient practice out of the church because of purgatory and other errors.

Thoughts on this? Have any Reformed writers spoken of this? All the sources I have found speak to the issue of purgatory.

We don't pray for the dead.

 

[jinc1019]

I think that the best thing would be to pray that the Lord would give YOU peace concerning the final state of those who have passed.

Sure, I think that would be good too, but why would it be inappropriate to pray to God in the way I described above? The earliest church fathers seemed to do this quite frequently, and as long as it's done properly, I don't see why a person couldn't do that.

I also think that since God is outside of time and space, you could make an argument that you can pray to God today about something you don't know the outcome of that occurred 24 hours ago as if you're praying before the event occurred. Why not? I can't seem to find ANY objections in the Reformed confessions to prayers for the dead except for those having to do with purgatory.

 

[jinc1019]

We don't pray for the dead.

Thanks for writing in. I'm well aware Reformed people confessionally do not pray for the dead, but as I pointed out, I don't see anything in any of the Reformed confessions that would explain why someone couldn't pray the prayers I mentioned above. In fact, I don't see anything in most Reformed theology treatises either that address this issue outside the context of purgatory. Why, biblically, would it be inappropriate to pray the prayers I mentioned above, or even to pray for something, as I described in my last comment, for something you don't know the outcome of (in light of the fact God exists outside of time and space?)

 

[RC1970]

Sure, I think that would be good too, but why would it be inappropriate to pray to God in the way I described above? The earliest church fathers seemed to do this quite frequently, and as long as it's done properly, I don't see why a person couldn't do that.

I also think that since God is outside of time and space, you could make an argument that you can pray to God today about something you don't know the outcome of that occurred 24 hours ago as if you're praying before the event occurred. Why not? I can't seem to find ANY objections in the Reformed confessions to prayers for the dead except for those having to do with purgatory.

You can pray for whatever you want. My point is that since the fate of those who have passed is already sealed, the only effect that praying for them would have is to ease your own mind. The time to pray for a person is while he or she lives and there is still the possibility of his or her heart, attitudes, and behavior being changed (Romans 2:3-9) Praying for the dead only demonstrates the petitioners lack of understanding concerning justification.

 

[jinc1019]

You can pray for whatever you want. My point is that since the fate of those who have passed is already sealed, the only effect that praying for them would have is to ease your own mind. The time to pray for a person is while he or she lives and there is still the possibility of his or her heart, attitudes, and behavior being changed (Romans 2:3-9) Praying for the dead only demonstrates the petitioners lack of understanding concerning justification.

I don't agree at all. If God is outside of space and time, then I'm not sure why it matters when I pray for someone. God hears it across time, including when that person had NOT yet received faith. Besides, as I mentioned in my OP, by your logic, we shouldn't pray for anyone at all, because ultimately God's plan is God's plan and nothing we pray is going to change God's plan.

 

[sahjimira]

I don't pray for the dead. But there is a scripture saying something about Why then do u pray for the dead? Maybe it was baptise the dead?_ don't have bible with me! I believe it was Paul who said it. I've heard he was talking about a pagan practice. Anyone know?

 

[LaSorcia]

Yes, in the Christian Bible, people were getting baptized on behalf of those who had already died. It might do no good, but it's not a sin (ask what you will), so I think it's ok to pray for those who have left this earth.

 

[jinc1019]

I don't pray for the dead. But there is a scripture saying something about Why then do u pray for the dead? Maybe it was baptise the dead?_ don't have bible with me! I believe it was Paul who said it. I've heard he was talking about a pagan practice. Anyone know?

Hi! I think you're referring to this:

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB)

The explanation usually given for this passage is Paul is trying to relate the reality of the future resurrection to those who had an understanding of pagan rituals. Most scholars (outside of Mormonism) don't actually think it has anything to do with Christians baptizing the dead one way or the other, and it doesn't mention prayer at all. I'm not sure it's relevant here either way, but thanks for bringing it up. It's a very interesting passage.

 

[hedrick]

I don't agree at all. If God is outside of space and time, then I'm not sure why it matters when I pray for someone. God hears it across time, including when that person had NOT yet received faith. Besides, as I mentioned in my OP, by your logic, we shouldn't pray for anyone at all, because ultimately God's plan is God's plan and nothing we pray is going to change God's plan.

I agree with this. It seems to me that we should talk with God about the things that concern us. When someone we care about has died recently, we naturally care about what happened to them. It seems like a weird rule to say that this is the one concern we're not allowed to pray about. Causality is kind of odd when prayer is involved. Reformed theology sees everything happening in accordance with God's plan. I doubt that God changes his mind. But still, God wants us to pray.

 

[AMR]

Thanks for writing in. I'm well aware Reformed people confessionally do not pray for the dead, but as I pointed out, I don't see anything in any of the Reformed confessions that would explain why someone couldn't pray the prayers I mentioned above. In fact, I don't see anything in most Reformed theology treatises either that address this issue outside the context of purgatory. Why, biblically, would it be inappropriate to pray the prayers I mentioned above, or even to pray for something, as I described in my last comment, for something you don't know the outcome of (in light of the fact God exists outside of time and space?)

Our Confession is clear on the matter:

WCF 21:4 Prayer is to be made for things lawful; and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter: but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.

The scripture proofs for "but not for the dead" are as follows...

2Sam 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Let's not discuss topics beyond our confessional basis in this safe-haven forum.

 

[jinc1019]

Our Confession is clear on the matter:

WCF 21:4 Prayer is to be made for things lawful; and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter: but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.

The scripture proofs for "but not for the dead" are as follows...

2Sam 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Let's not discuss topics beyond our confessional basis in this safe-haven forum.

Hi AMR,

Thanks for responding. I've read the WC and the scriptural references before as well. However, they do not address my concern, as I'm sure you realize. None of the references you have there deal with the kind of prayers I mentioned above.

I guess I don't understand, since I'm not from a Reformed background, how then the Reformed would treat funerals or individuals who would come to a pastor to pray about someone they have lost. Is all communication about these topics immediately shut off? How would a pastor pray with a person in that situation?

Further, why can't someone pray for someone in the hopes that the person had faith, is resting peacefully, etc.? Obviously this should always be done with the understanding prayers don't change God's plan, but I just don't see how that violates anything in scripture, including the passages you referenced above.

Does the larger or short catechism address this issue at all? I couldn't find anything.

 

[jinc1019]

Our Confession is clear on the matter:

WCF 21:4 Prayer is to be made for things lawful; and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter: but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.

The scripture proofs for "but not for the dead" are as follows...

2Sam 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Let's not discuss topics beyond our confessional basis in this safe-haven forum.

Also, have any Reformed theologians addressed this issue as I have addressed it, rather than about purgatory?

 

[jinc1019]

I agree with this. It seems to me that we should talk with God about the things that concern us. When someone we care about has died recently, we naturally care about what happened to them. It seems like a weird rule to say that this is the one concern we're not allowed to pray about. Causality is kind of odd when prayer is involved. Reformed theology sees everything happening in accordance with God's plan. I doubt that God changes his mind. But still, God wants us to pray.

Right ... I have a lot of trouble understanding this one since no Reformed person would have a problem praying for good health or for a living family member to have faith, etc. All of those things are also totally under God's power too in Reformed theology.

 

[hedrick]

I guess I don't understand, since I'm not from a Reformed background, how then the Reformed would treat funerals or individuals who would come to a pastor to pray about someone they have lost. Is all communication about these topics immediately shut off? How would a pastor pray with a person in that situation?

I don't think you'll find prayers for the deceased in a Presbyterian funeral. A funeral is to celebrate the life of the person, and is a witness to the Resurrection. Reformed folk don't envision it as an act for the benefit of the deceased. He is, after all, already with Christ in paradise (Luke 23:43) or not.

My suggestion was that it's always appropriate for people to bring their concerns to God, but I think that's different than a public worship service. it would certainly be appropriate to talk with a pastor about any concerns. Death of a loved one is not a forbidden topic, and in fact is a situation where pastoral care is important. I think Reformed pastors would generally find a way to be helpful without actually praying for the deceased. But if asked, I think those who are less hard-line than AMR might well do it, as long as it was clear that this was not an attempt to spring someone from Purgatory.

 

[jinc1019]

I don't think you'll find prayers for the deceased in a Presbyterian funeral. A funeral is to celebrate the life of the person, and is a witness to the Resurrection. Reformed folk don't envision it as an act for the benefit of the deceased. He is, after all, already with Christ in paradise (Luke 23:43) or not.

My suggestion was that it's always appropriate for people to bring their concerns to God, but I think that's different than a public worship service. it would certainly be appropriate to talk with a pastor about any concerns. Death of a loved one is not a forbidden topic, and in fact is a situation where pastoral care is important. I think Reformed pastors would generally find a way to be helpful without actually praying for the deceased. But if asked, I think those who are less hard-line than AMR might well do it, as long as it was clear that this was not an attempt to spring someone from Purgatory.

Got it, thanks for this Hedrick. Very helpful.

 

[tulipbee]

The alive claps the hand and produces sound waves called vibrations. That vibration never stops. It continues out into a place and things. It joins the waves in the sea and becomes part it it forever. While the alive dies,they go to the grace but those actions before death continues. Memories are more than just that .it effected everything . it continues. The van Gogh painting continues to effects things. It's still alive. You born from your father is edvince. When you pray, you're thinking of the dead as if their actions were effective in your life. Purgatory is the same as reincarnation if we think theres a gap somewhere before Jesus returns. If we're not saved yet but in process of being saved till Christ comes then there some sort of waiting period going on.

 

[AMR]

Hi AMR,

Thanks for responding. I've read the WC and the scriptural references before as well. However, they do not address my concern, as I'm sure you realize. None of the references you have there deal with the kind of prayers I mentioned above.

I guess I don't understand, since I'm not from a Reformed background, how then the Reformed would treat funerals or individuals who would come to a pastor to pray about someone they have lost. Is all communication about these topics immediately shut off? How would a pastor pray with a person in that situation?

Further, why can't someone pray for someone in the hopes that the person had faith, is resting peacefully, etc.? Obviously this should always be done with the understanding prayers don't change God's plan, but I just don't see how that violates anything in scripture, including the passages you referenced above.

Does the larger or short catechism address this issue at all? I couldn't find anything.

Our Lord teaches us to pray "Thy will be done." We must not pray contrary to God's will. The past has happened and all that has happened is God's will—as included in His decree.

You wonder about "Praying that the saints in heaven enjoy their rest and are no longer suffering." To whom is your prayer addressed? To the saints? We have no warrant from Scripture that they can hear our prayers, nor are they omnisicient and able to hear our prayers. Assuming otherwise is irrational. Further, prayer and worship is to be directed to God and God alone. If you want to offer up prayers of gratitude to God for His mercy and grace in redeeming His chosen, then by all means make that part of your prayers of adoration and thanksgiving to God.

Further you ask about Praying to God with hope that a deceased person died in faith: "God, we pray with hope that (person's name) left this world with faith, according to your holy plan." Rather, pray that it be the will of God that so and so was one of His chosen and now rests in His presence until you are joined with he or she in your glory. And furthermore, pray that no matter what the eternal destination of so and so may be, you give all honor and glory to God for His wisdom even when His will crosses your own will. For whenever painful providence visits us, our response must always be supplication before God seeking His grace such that our response to these painful events will be spiritual and submissive.

You go on to declare without qualification "I can't seem to find ANY objections in the Reformed confessions to prayers for the dead except for those having to do with purgatory." As I have noted, there is clear warrant from Scripture which is accurately summarized by our Confession to the contrary. So when we use the phrase "prayers for the dead", we need to be clear about exactly what we mean.

Lastly, you ignore the rules of this safe-haven forum by stridently asserting " I don't agree at all. If God is outside of space and time, then I'm not sure why it matters when I pray for someone. God hears it across time, including when that person had NOT yet received faith. Besides, as I mentioned in my OP, by your logic, we shouldn't pray for anyone at all, because ultimately God's plan is God's plan and nothing we pray is going to change God's plan." You admit you have no background in our faith. You declare yourself a seeker. You have entered into a safe haven and argued contrary to our views. If you want to understand our views, then a posture of listening and being open to correction is the correct approach. Debating the matters of our faith is not permitted. The prayers of the faithful are but one of the means of God's ordained purposes. It is not as if God does not know what we pray before we pray thusly. We are commanded to lift up prayer to God. We do so and in so doing the ordained means of God are fulfilled and His ends achieved...all according to His decree. Prayer does not change God. Prayer changes us.

Worth a read: http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=164

 

[jinc1019]

Our Lord teaches us to pray "Thy will be done." We must not pray contrary to God's will. The past has happened and all that has happened is God's will—as included in His decree.

You wonder about "Praying that the saints in heaven enjoy their rest and are no longer suffering." To whom is your prayer addressed? To the saints? We have no warrant from Scripture that they can hear our prayers, nor are they omnisicient and able to hear our prayers. Assuming otherwise is irrational. Further, prayer and worship is to be directed to God and God alone. If you want to offer up prayers of gratitude to God for His mercy and grace in redeeming His chosen, then by all means make that part of your prayers of adoration and thanksgiving to God.

Further you ask about Praying to God with hope that a deceased person died in faith: "God, we pray with hope that (person's name) left this world with faith, according to your holy plan." Rather, pray that it be the will of God that so and so was one of His chosen and now rests in His presence until you are joined with he or she in your glory. And furthermore, pray that no matter what the eternal destination of so and so may be, you give all honor and glory to God for His wisdom even when His will crosses your own will. For whenever painful providence visits us, our response must always be supplication before God seeking His grace such that our response to these painful events will be spiritual and submissive.

You go on to declare without qualification "I can't seem to find ANY objections in the Reformed confessions to prayers for the dead except for those having to do with purgatory." As I have noted, there is clear warrant from Scripture which is accurately summarized by our Confession to the contrary. So when we use the phrase "prayers for the dead", we need to be clear about exactly what we mean.

Lastly, you ignore the rules of this safe-haven forum by stridently asserting " I don't agree at all. If God is outside of space and time, then I'm not sure why it matters when I pray for someone. God hears it across time, including when that person had NOT yet received faith. Besides, as I mentioned in my OP, by your logic, we shouldn't pray for anyone at all, because ultimately God's plan is God's plan and nothing we pray is going to change God's plan." You admit you have no background in our faith. You declare yourself a seeker. You have entered into a safe haven and argued contrary to our views. If you want to understand our views, then a posture of listening and being open to correction is the correct approach. Debating the matters of our faith is not permitted. The prayers of the faithful are but one of the means of God's ordained purposes. It is not as if God does not know what we pray before we pray thusly. We are commanded to lift up prayer to God. We do so and in so doing the ordained means of God are fulfilled and His ends achieved...all according to His decree. Prayer does not change God. Prayer changes us.

Worth a read: http://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=164

Thanks AMR,

I appreciate the response. I can sympathize with much you have written here, except, perhaps predictably, the end.

I didn't intend to "argue" any point ... I simply said I didn't agree (and explained why, because what would the point of saying I disagree without explaining) and asked a series of clarifying questions. It's true I've never been a member of a Reformed church, but quite frankly, I probably know far more about Reformed theology than 90 percent of lay people in Reformed churches. I've read all your confessions multiple times, read various Reformed theologians, and I've worshipped many times at Reformed churches.

When I said I don't have a background in it, I simply meant I haven't spent my life in Reformed churches and therefore don't know about this topic SPECIFICALLY outside of what's in your confession, which, as I pointed out, doesn't even address my question directly.

Frankly, I don't think your responses really disagree with anything I said.

You wrote in your response: "'God, we pray with hope that (person's name) left this world with faith, according to your holy plan.'" Rather, pray that it be the will of God that so and so was one of His chosen and now rests in His presence until you are joined with he or she in your glory. And furthermore, pray that no matter what the eternal destination of so and so may be, you give all honor and glory to God for His wisdom even when His will crosses your own will.

I'm not sure how your suggestion differs at all from my own. I suggested a prayer to God, not to the deceased, that says plainly "we pray with hope" that person A has faith, "according to your holy plan." That's almost exactly what you go on to "correct" me about.

With all that said, your response is precisely what I like about Reformed theology. Reformed people treat God like he's God, not a coworker or a friend down the street. Reformed people are very careful about how they treat and interact with God, and I think that's a good and biblical thing. I'm definitely trying to be more like that, and I appreciate your response.

Since you answered my questions directly, I'll refrain from commenting further in accordance with your forum's rules (since I'm not myself Reformed). I do appreciate your time.

One thing I'd like to add before going: I realize that this is meant to be a "safe haven," but many people, myself included, learn much better by asking questions, challenging others (and myself), and drawing from those conversations. Simply rejecting people's honest inquiries, which are clearly not meant to be argumentative, is a mistake, in my opinion. I understand why you did it, but I think it could and does make a lot of people trying to understand your views feel like you have no interest in explaining, only dictating.

Just my opinion, for whatever that's worth. I may not be a theologian, but I'm a pretty successful and well-educated person and I think those principles cut across multiple disciplines.