Are their sins forgiven?

[devin553344]

If a person is punished in a court of law, years of life taken away or to pay the victims, are their sins forgiven? Or is that just adding to the sin by punishing them that will eventually have to suffer for their sins.

Of course God can forgive sins, and judge mankind. But I was wondering about when mankind demands punishment?

Then is the legal system wicked, and punishing them that are already destined for paying for their own sins? Or punishing mankind when God will pay for their sins?

I've always been under the impression that the legal system has the right to stop criminals and keep people safe from criminals by imprisoning them. But then they kill some of them also. Isn't that evil and wicked?

I say this since the two thieves crucified next to Jesus were to be in paradise with him? Does God count that as paying for their sins, being punished by man?

Just asking the theological question, thanks.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

If a person is punished in a court of law, years of life taken away or to pay the victims, are their sins forgiven? Or is that just adding to the sin by punishing them that will eventually have to suffer for their sins.

Of course God can forgive sins, and judge mankind. But I was wondering about when mankind demands punishment?

Then is the legal system wicked, and punishing them that are already destined for paying for their own sins? Or punishing mankind when God will pay for their sins?

I've always been under the impression that the legal system has the right to stop criminals and keep people safe from criminals by imprisoning them. But then they kill some of them also. Isn't that evil and wicked?

I say this since the two thieves crucified next to Jesus were to be in paradise with him? Does God count that as paying for their sins, being punished by man?

Just asking the theological question, thanks.

Actually, only one of the soldiers was given passage into paradise. The other one mocked him like the soldiers and the crowd.

 

[devin553344]

Actually, only one of the soldiers was given passage into paradise. The other one mocked him like the soldiers and the crowd.

Oh, thanks I wasn't aware of that

 

[bling]

If a person is punished in a court of law, years of life taken away or to pay the victims, are their sins forgiven? Or is that just adding to the sin by punishing them that will eventually have to suffer for their sins.

Of course God can forgive sins, and judge mankind. But I was wondering about when mankind demands punishment?

Then is the legal system wicked, and punishing them that are already destined for paying for their own sins? Or punishing mankind when God will pay for their sins?

I've always been under the impression that the legal system has the right to stop criminals and keep people safe from criminals by imprisoning them. But then they kill some of them also. Isn't that evil and wicked?

I say this since the two thieves crucified next to Jesus were to be in paradise with him? Does God count that as paying for their sins, being punished by man?

Just asking the theological question, thanks.

The criminal being “punished” in this life are being punished for breaking man’s Law and not for “sinning” (breaking God’s law). God allows people to be punished in this life for transgressions against man’s laws, because it can discipline them into coming to their senses, seeking God’s help, and repenting: You see this with the prodigal son starving to death in a pigsty.

If the criminal does some bad thing that rewards him with the pleasures of sin for a season, he will be encouraged to do it again, but if he gets caught thrown in jail he has time to think, has a good reason to seek God’s help and might be humbled enough to be willing to accept God’s charity. This can happen even if he will be heading to the gallows. So is this “punishment”/disciplining handed out by man helpful or harmful for the criminal?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Deuteronomy 21:22-23

And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

This verse seems to suggest a relationship between the two. Not only is the man executed by human authority, but he's also cursed by God at the same time. Compare that to Galatians 3:13

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

Because of his public execution, he was also cursed. We can see the effect of that in Mark 15:34

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

So, then, man's punishment has a connection to God's punishment. We see an argument for this in Romans 13:1-5

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

So the end conclusion is that it's not an either/or situation. The earthly punishment is part of the punishment from God. Therefore, it's not evil to execute the wicked. They are destined to pay for their own sins, and this is part of it. Whether they are saved from eternal punishment is another matter.

 

[Sarah G]

Prison is not (meant) to punish people it is (meant) to rehabilitate people. Ideally repentance would be part of rehabilitation. Showing remorse and good behaviour in prison is a way to be released early or on time. Maybe that is a uniquely European perspective.

 

[devin553344]

Prison is not (meant) to punish people it is (meant) to rehabilitate people. Ideally repentance would be part of rehabilitation. Showing remorse and good behaviour in prison is a way to be released early or on time. Maybe that is a uniquely European perspective.

Having been to jail myself once when I couldn't afford meds for my mental illness and got into trouble from paranoia and delusions. That said, the people in jail are mostly filled with sinners that are basking in their sin and hailing their great acts of criminal behavior. They teach more crime in there and how to get away with it better. That's all you hear and are subjected to 24-7.

That said I actually felt more like being a criminal having been in jail. But I rehabilitated due to having a good family and a family of police officers and military. Myself having been in the marines.

I wish it were set up for rehabilitation, but it isn't really. They do have church services though which I did attend. But technically, putting a sinner in with a big group of sinners isn't an attempt at rehabilitation, it's just the opposite, cause those that might rehabilitate are put in with worse sinners. If you're going to rehabilitate you would put them with do gooders to teach them. Like Christians

 

[devin553344]

Deuteronomy 21:22-23



This verse seems to suggest a relationship between the two. Not only is the man executed by human authority, but he's also cursed by God at the same time. Compare that to Galatians 3:13



Because of his public execution, he was also cursed. We can see the effect of that in Mark 15:34



So, then, man's punishment has a connection to God's punishment. We see an argument for this in Romans 13:1-5



So the end conclusion is that it's not an either/or situation. The earthly punishment is part of the punishment from God. Therefore, it's not evil to execute the wicked. They are destined to pay for their own sins, and this is part of it. Whether they are saved from eternal punishment is another matter.

Thanks for finding that, I couldn't see it but wondered about that

 

[Amazing Horse]

If a person is punished in a court of law, years of life taken away or to pay the victims, are their sins forgiven? Or is that just adding to the sin by punishing them that will eventually have to suffer for their sins.

Of course God can forgive sins, and judge mankind. But I was wondering about when mankind demands punishment?

Then is the legal system wicked, and punishing them that are already destined for paying for their own sins? Or punishing mankind when God will pay for their sins?

I've always been under the impression that the legal system has the right to stop criminals and keep people safe from criminals by imprisoning them. But then they kill some of them also. Isn't that evil and wicked?

I say this since the two thieves crucified next to Jesus were to be in paradise with him? Does God count that as paying for their sins, being punished by man?

Just asking the theological question, thanks.

Only God can forgive sins , judge at court not forgive you sins .
Eye for eye is simple law and it could be like that today why not .
Exodus 21:24

You should rather forgive other christian what he did than just punishing him , but for goverment eye for eye is not bad .

Personally i would prefer guy who murder somebody , insteed of lifetime in jail watching TV or death row , rather let him work 8h/ day for next 100 years for free , and goverment take his salary .

 

[JoeP222w]

If a person is punished in a court of law, years of life taken away or to pay the victims, are their sins forgiven? Or is that just adding to the sin by punishing them that will eventually have to suffer for their sins.

Of course God can forgive sins, and judge mankind. But I was wondering about when mankind demands punishment?

Then is the legal system wicked, and punishing them that are already destined for paying for their own sins? Or punishing mankind when God will pay for their sins?

I've always been under the impression that the legal system has the right to stop criminals and keep people safe from criminals by imprisoning them. But then they kill some of them also. Isn't that evil and wicked?

I say this since the two thieves crucified next to Jesus were to be in paradise with him? Does God count that as paying for their sins, being punished by man?

Just asking the theological question, thanks.

Man's court system does not satisfy God's perfect justice. If a man murders someone, is caught and sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty, that does not automatically mean that he is right before God, because God judges the heart. The human court system can never judge the heart. The human justice system does not cleanse one of sin guilt. Moreover, if a man murders someone, then God does a work of grace on that man, cause him to repent and trust in Jesus Christ and He becomes born again, his sin is washed away clean and he is given the righteousness of Jesus Christ. But that does not mean that he won't suffer the consequences of the murder he committed and he will still have to face the human court system.

As to the courts executing convicted criminals: No it is not evil if the due process of law is followed. God gave the state the power to execute capital punishment on those who are guilty of crimes warranting the death penalty [Romans 13].

 

[ubicaritas]

The criminal being “punished” in this life are being punished for breaking man’s Law and not for “sinning” (breaking God’s law). God allows people to be punished in this life for transgressions against man’s laws, because it can discipline them into coming to their senses, seeking God’s help, and repenting: You see this with the prodigal son starving to death in a pigsty.

This is not correct. God commands just laws because God cares about justice, not because he is manipulative.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Prison is not (meant) to punish people it is (meant) to rehabilitate people. Ideally repentance would be part of rehabilitation. Showing remorse and good behaviour in prison is a way to be released early or on time. Maybe that is a uniquely European perspective.

It is not uniquely European but it is not a universally accepted perspective. It is also hogwash IMO to say prison is not meant to punish people and is only meant to rehabilitate people. Prison is meant to do both. The problem is that the two goals are not easily d accomplished simultaneously. Prison does a very good job of punishing but is not conducive to rehabilitating.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Our sins are not forgiven by means of punishment. therefore the whole premise of the OP is faulty

 

[ubicaritas]

Actually, focusing on punishment is more western. In non-western cultures, justice is often conceived of as being restorative. The OT commandment (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) that a man that has sex with a father's virgin daughter and must pay the father, then marry his daughter is an example of restorative justice. In a system of restorative justice, the focus is on the restoration of social harmony.

 

[devin553344]

Man's court system does not satisfy God's perfect justice. If a man murders someone, is caught and sentenced to life in prison or the death penalty, that does not automatically mean that he is right before God, because God judges the heart. The human court system can never judge the heart. The human justice system does not cleanse one of sin guilt. Moreover, if a man murders someone, then God does a work of grace on that man, cause him to repent and trust in Jesus Christ and He becomes born again, his sin is washed away clean and he is given the righteousness of Jesus Christ. But that does not mean that he won't suffer the consequences of the murder he committed and he will still have to face the human court system.

As to the courts executing convicted criminals: No it is not evil if the due process of law is followed. God gave the state the power to execute capital punishment on those who are guilty of crimes warranting the death penalty [Romans 13].

You said man's court does not satisfy perfect justice, but in Romans 13 it says:

13 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the [powers] that be are ordained of God.

Then are the judges of our rulers not judges of God, and if so enact the judgement of God and therefore when punished are we not fulfilled and sinless? Having paid for our sins? It mentions "higher powers".

In other words, I see your point but I also see something else?

 

[JoeP222w]

You said man's court does not satisfy perfect justice, but in Romans 13 it says:

13 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the [powers] that be are ordained of God.

Then are the judges of our rulers not judges of God, and if so enact the judgement of God and therefore when punished are we not fulfilled and sinless? Having paid for our sins? It mentions "higher powers".

In other words, I see your point but I also see something else?

Corrupt judges in the land (as is currently the case in the USA, the court systems are rife with corrupt judges) is the judgment of God upon a nation when they have turned their back on Him and refuse to obey His mandates.

 

[devin553344]

Corrupt judges in the land (as is currently the case in the USA, the court systems are rife with corrupt judges) is the judgment of God upon a nation when they have turned their back on Him and refuse to obey His mandates.

And then there's the judgments of Hitler and terrorist nations going about exterminating innocent persons. I see your point. There may be evil in the powers under God?

 

[devin553344]

And then there's the judgments of Hitler and terrorist nations going about exterminating innocent persons. I see your point. There may be evil in the powers under God?

But then it could be said that God put Hitler under foot. And currently putting terrorists under foot and judgment. That God gave the just powers over the earth, but that is still being accomplished.

 

[devin553344]

Only God can forgive sins , judge at court not forgive you sins .
Eye for eye is simple law and it could be like that today why not .
Exodus 21:24

You should rather forgive other christian what he did than just punishing him , but for goverment eye for eye is not bad .

Personally i would prefer guy who murder somebody , insteed of lifetime in jail watching TV or death row , rather let him work 8h/ day for next 100 years for free , and goverment take his salary .

I was considering that God takes into account when man punishes man for sins later when God judges a person. Thinking that God is merciful and just.

 

[JoeP222w]

And then there's the judgments of Hitler and terrorist nations going about exterminating innocent persons. I see your point. There may be evil in the powers under God?

Hitler and ISIS and such are evil wicked people, no doubt. However, the Bible teaches that there are none who are innocent, none that are good. That does not mean that I am saying that Hitler or the others were righteous in what they did. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

God has sovereign decree and uses secondary means (evil men) to carry out His sovereign will, to demonstrate His wrath against sin and evil, but also to preserve people whom He chooses (Joseph's brothers, Genesis 50). This does not mean that God is the author of evil or that He is evil. But God does sovereignly rule over the good things that happen in this world and He sovereignly rules over the evil things that happen in this world (Satan requires God's permission to carry out his (Satan) deeds, Job 1 and 2).