Are the terms "conservative Christian" or "conservative Protestant" unproblematic?

[Pavel Mosko]

I think @thecolorsblend has a good point, "fundamentalist" might not be the nicest term but it does describe the mindset.

I sometimes talk about certain issues like Bible Interpretation, Sola Scriptura using the terms of legal theory. It's very good for that, and I think could be useful here except that is far more technical than what 95% of the populations wants to deal with!

Category:Theories of law - Wikipedia

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In the Anglican world, they used to have a term to describe the dissenters in the Episcopal Church and elsewhere that did not agree with Gene Robinson's consecration as bishop and who decided to leave the church, and who were typically unified in ideology that traditional readings of the Biblical text outweighed what the Anglican Communion's primates conference called a "listening process". It was accurate without implying they were conserving something essential, but at this point it slips my mind, as its been a while since I dealt with the Anglican world (over 5 years). It also clearly communicated that they were disagreeing with an emerging, informed consensus.

I would say we need to resource that term for ourselves, so I'll have to look it up. Perhaps some Episcopalians here are familiar with the term.

I find labels tend to be used to dismiss a position without addressing its points.

so regardless of the choice, the result is the same.

 

[FireDragon76]

I find conservative vs liberal Christianity only actually means where you stand on homosexuality/same sex marriage and abortion. Everything else is a farce. That's all most people actually mean.

I like the idea of just calling it Side A and Side B, because in my experience once stance on those issues has less to do with theological orientation and more to do with how one approaches Christian ethics. And my church, those are separate disciplines.

 

[Halbhh]

Are we in fact delegitmizing other approaches to being Christian, by using the term "conservative"? After all, conservative suggests "to preserve something", typically something presumed important or essential.

I sometimes wonder about this. I use the term myself, mostly because I think "Fundamentalist" may be interpreted uncharitably in the wake of 9/11. But I also realize that by talking about white, evangelical, non-mainline theology in the manner I and many other mainline Protestants do on this forum, it makes us sound defensive or apologetic about our own ways of being Christians, because we need to qualify that some way in contrast to "conservativism".

It was after a lot of thought, and conviction about what is right, that I finally and reluctantly voiced that every modifier on Christian is problematic. Really, just not good at all. Because they are all ways of qualifying or modifying, and what are we qualifying or modifying there?...

...

 

[FireDragon76]

I find both "conservative" and "liberal" really unhelpful terms. Both are hard to define consistently, often resorted to as terms of abuse, and easily confused (eg. the differences between religious and social and political conservatism; or between conservatism in one country and in another, and so forth).

Also construing our communities along these sorts of polarities tends to lead to us dealing with people as if such a label actually defines them, when of course for most people it's more complicated than that.

I've reflected on what you said, and I believe you are exactly right.

I'm trying to find ways to constructively engage with other Christians on this forum.

I see many Christians seekers who discount mainline churches simply because they are deemed "liberal", and I wonder if we ourselves are contributing to this problem by adopting these categories. So I'm trying to think of a way to elevate the conversation beyond these labels, while still having accurate ways of describing differences when necessary.

 

[archer75]

I seriously don't see why people who are here or there politically can't worship together.

 

[FireDragon76]

I seriously don't see why people who are here or there politically can't worship together.

I think its more than politics its also orientation to culture. Is secular culture basically good, bad, or something that is more nuanced?

In the US, issues like abortion and gay rights are very divisive in religious communities. People make snap judgments about churches just on those issues alone. It's like a checkbox list you have to match up to. They can't think beyond the narrative of a culture war, nor can they acknowledge that religion is complicated, and does change.

I think my own congregation is comprehensive of different perspectives on these issues. We don't demand uniformity. That seems difficult for many Christians in the US to accept.

 

[hedrick]

Obviously there are more than two types of Christianity. Yet there are a number of common characteristics that I think can be put on a spectrum. It doesn’t explain all differences among Christians, but a lot of them, particularly if you look at just Protestants.

I think fundamentalism, the creation of evangelicalism, and later the politicization of conservative Christianity has tended to draw that end of the spectrum together, just as the results of current scholarship and contemporary theology have tended to draw mainline and liberal Christianity together.

But it's a spectrum, so most people don't share all the characteristics of either pure type. Many churches also have a range of people, though there have been ongoing attempts to purge dissenters.

 

[FireDragon76]

Obviously there are more than two types of Christianity. Yet there are a number of common characteristics that I think can be put on a spectrum. It doesn’t explain all differences among Christians, but a lot of them, particularly if you look at just Protestants.

I think fundamentalism, the creation of evangelicalism, and later the politicization of conservative Christianity has tended to draw that end of the spectrum together, just as the results of current scholarship and contemporary theology have tended to draw mainline and liberal Christianity together.

But it's a spectrum, so most people don't share all the characteristics of either pure type. Many churches also have a range of people, though there have been ongoing attempts to purge dissenters.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you do find the labels useful?

I disagree with the label of "conservative Christianity", as I don't think its particularly accurate.

I think "mainline" and "fundamentalist" (and possibly charismatic, which can actually occur in both camps, being a second axis altogether) are probably better descriptors. Mainline does not necessarily mean liberal theology but it does often mean at least accepting a somewhat critical approach, and consensual rather than authoritarian models of decision making. These identities also aren't a singular thing but represent an assortment of various "isms" and religious traditions.

 

[hedrick]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but you do find the labels useful?

I use "conservative" for a fairly common set of beliefs and practices that aren't quite fundamentalist, but span evangelicals, confessional Protestants, and some others. I use "mainline" for the moderate end of the liberal side.

 

[FireDragon76]

I use "conservative" for a fairly common set of beliefs and practices that aren't quite fundamentalist, but span evangelicals, confessional Protestants, and some others. I use "mainline" for the moderate end of the liberal side.

The ELCA is mainline, by that accounting, though we are probably closer to conservatives than many other mainline denominations.

Fundamentalism seems more common, though, than these categories acknowledge. I wouldn't say, for instance, that Tim Keller was a fundamentalist, but there are PCA Presbyterians and many Baptists in the US that clearly fit that description. Some LCMS Lutherans, and especially the WELS, are also fundamentalists, though in a Lutheran context that looks a little different in terms of cultural engagement.

In the wider scope of Christian history, all Protestants are at least somewhat liberal, because we rejected tradition as an absolute source of authority.

 

[hedrick]

The ELCA is mainline, by that accounting, though we are probably closer to conservatives than many other mainline denominations.

One characteristic of the mainline denominations is that they have a mix ranging from conservative to very liberal. Probably not many hardcore fundamentalists, but a few.

The fundamentalist controversy early in the 20th Cent in the Presbyterian Church wasn't actually about whether the fundamentals are all true, but about whether one had to believe them to be a member of the Church.

 

[FireDragon76]

One characteristic of the mainline denominations is that they have a mix ranging from conservative to very liberal. Probably not many hardcore fundamentalists, but a few.

The fundamentalist controversy early in the 20th Cent in the Presbyterian Church wasn't actually about whether the fundamentals are all true, but about whether one had to believe them to be a member of the Church.

I think in some denominations, it has more to do with how much latitude is given. I don't think we have anybody in our denomination like John Shelby Spong, for instance, but that doesn't mean we spell out exactly what it means to believe in the historic creeds and confessions, in quite as much detail as conservative Christians. We are more averse to controversy like that, anyways.

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't really like the terms conservative and liberal to describe Christians. For example, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to social issues in politics, but when it comes to theology, I don't like to consider myself liberal because I (rightfully or wrongfully) mentally interpret liberal theology as "anything goes" theology, which would not describe how I believe.

When I think of a conservative Christian, my mind (rightfully or wrongfully) automatically leaps to a FOX news addict who follows Republican Jesus and who believes everyone who isn't sealed with an R is a commie socialist snowflake.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't really like the terms conservative and liberal to describe Christians. For example, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to social issues in politics, but when it comes to theology, I don't like to consider myself liberal because I (rightfully or wrongfully) mentally interpret liberal theology as "anything goes" theology, which would not describe how I believe.

You're a mainline Protestant. Contrary to the perception, there are many theological conservatives or moderates in the mainline. My pastor is one such person.

 

[bekkilyn]

You're a mainline Protestant. Contrary to the perception, there are many theological conservatives or moderates in the mainline. My pastor is one such person.

Yep, and there are a number of political conservatives in mainline denominations as well, at least here in the U.S. south where I live. From what I've been told while at some clergy district meetings, that there are even a few UMC pastors in my state who are so politically and theologically conservative to the point where they seem to oppose practically every Wesleyan value when it comes to theology that no one really knows how they managed to get through the very lengthy ordination process.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I find conservative vs liberal Christianity only actually means where you stand on homosexuality/same sex marriage and abortion. Everything else is a farce. That's all most people actually mean.

I'm a liberal and I support LGBT rights and same sex marriage, but I don't support abortion. I also think social justice activism (and political activism) and environmentalism also define the very distinct differences between conservative vs liberal Christianity. I base my opinion as a veteran activist (social justice and political) and environmentalist myself, with 28 years of personal experience.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yep, and there are a number of political conservatives in mainline denominations as well, at least here in the U.S. south where I live. From what I've been told while at some clergy district meetings, that there are even a few UMC pastors in my state who are so politically and theologically conservative to the point where they seem to oppose practically every Wesleyan value when it comes to theology that no one really knows how they managed to get through the very lengthy ordination process.

Yeah... I'm not really a fan of that kind of religion (I prefer a more moderate and less cynical stance towards our denominational representation), but it does exist, and not in inconsequential numbers in our denominations.

 

[FireDragon76]

One characteristic of the mainline denominations is that they have a mix ranging from conservative to very liberal. Probably not many hardcore fundamentalists, but a few.

The fundamentalist controversy early in the 20th Cent in the Presbyterian Church wasn't actually about whether the fundamentals are all true, but about whether one had to believe them to be a member of the Church.

Our congregation actually has a few "fundamentalists", as in 6-day creationists. Pastor tries to go easy on them and not offend them. The most important thing for a Lutheran is to generally not present stumbling blocks and respect other peoples consciences, as much as is lawful and prudent to do so.

Frequently I notice people in more conservative churches caricature mainline churches as all having similar attitudes and approaches, and nothing could be further from the truth in my experience.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't really like the terms conservative and liberal to describe Christians. For example, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to social issues in politics, but when it comes to theology, I don't like to consider myself liberal because I (rightfully or wrongfully) mentally interpret liberal theology as "anything goes" theology, which would not describe how I believe.

This describes about where I am. I am left-of-center when it comes to American politics, but am an ardent theological traditionalist. My commitment to the orthodoxy of the Creeds and the catholic faith of the historic Church is something I take very seriously.

There's no conflict here, as I see my commitment to orthodoxy being much of the impetus for my social views which happen to be regarded as left-of-center in the American political discourse. Of course whether one is "right" or "left" is, seemingly, quite arbitrary--it depends on where you are and who you ask.

-CryptoLutheran