I have been wondering about this and would appreciate your BIBLE based opinions.
Are the rapture and the second coming the same event?
- Thread starter chiamoni
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The "rapture" is the first event of a series of events that the Lord intends to execute
The Lord's second advent will include the following events in this order
The calling of His ecclesia [called out ones] ["rapture"]
His unprecedented wrath and judgment of an unbelieving world which will last for 2550 days
His appearing on the earth and gathering and separation of the mortal survivors of the same
His millennial rule upon the earth for 1000 years
His eternal kingdom
This is what He is coming to do .... all of this the "Day of the Lord"
His intervention will come with no warning at a time when the world will not be expecting it
Only His true ecclesia are expecting
But He has not revealed the dating
If you need scriptures I will give them to you
The Lord's second advent will include the following events in this order
The calling of His ecclesia [called out ones] ["rapture"]
His unprecedented wrath and judgment of an unbelieving world which will last for 2550 days
His appearing on the earth and gathering and separation of the mortal survivors of the same
His millennial rule upon the earth for 1000 years
His eternal kingdom
This is what He is coming to do .... all of this the "Day of the Lord"
His intervention will come with no warning at a time when the world will not be expecting it
Only His true ecclesia are expecting
But He has not revealed the dating
If you need scriptures I will give them to you
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Thanks. Some people are of the opinion that some christians who couldnt make the rapture could still be saved. How possible would that be if God would be pouring His wrath on the earth after taking His saints away?
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There will be people who will discover the truth during the tribulation period and turn to the Lord .... most will be of Israel, but some will be Gentiles of the nations [Revelation 6:9-11; 7:1-8; 11:11-12; 13:7; 14:1-7; 14:13; 15:2-3]
The Lord will not withdraw His offer of salvation during the coming tribulation of His wrath and judgment [Revelation 6:1-2]
The Lord will not withdraw His offer of salvation during the coming tribulation of His wrath and judgment [Revelation 6:1-2]
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Interplanner
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The only time the rapture is mentioned is in connection with things that were expected in the first generation of the church, and tied in to the destruction of Jerusalem.
The only thing that remains to happen is the worldwide day of judgement of God upon all those who do not accept that Christ reigns now, and deserves to reign now, because of his supreme effort in the Gospel.
After 40 years of study, all other NT communication about the rapture is quite confusing, and certainly far in the minority of necessary knowledge. It gets reduced to triviality, as though people were asking, 'let's see, what should I wear if it is the next thing to happen?'
The new world, which is tasted in Christ, will be made after that.
The only thing that remains to happen is the worldwide day of judgement of God upon all those who do not accept that Christ reigns now, and deserves to reign now, because of his supreme effort in the Gospel.
After 40 years of study, all other NT communication about the rapture is quite confusing, and certainly far in the minority of necessary knowledge. It gets reduced to triviality, as though people were asking, 'let's see, what should I wear if it is the next thing to happen?'
The new world, which is tasted in Christ, will be made after that.
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n2thelight
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Nowhere in scripture does it say"tribulation of His wrath"...
The tribulation and His wrath are two seperate events.....
Oh!And you can't seperate Israel from the Church,Israel is ,and has always been the Church......
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Really?
For the forum:
[Psalms 2; Joel 2:1-11; 3:9-21; Zechariah 12:1-9; Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation Jude 1:14-15; 3:10; 5: 6: specifically 6:12-17; 8:1-13; 7:16-18]
No where?
Better taker a look
For the forum:
[Psalms 2; Joel 2:1-11; 3:9-21; Zechariah 12:1-9; Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation Jude 1:14-15; 3:10; 5: 6: specifically 6:12-17; 8:1-13; 7:16-18]
No where?
Better taker a look
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n2thelight
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We must be reading different Bibles,as nowhere did I see God's tribulation in those verses
How bout posting one,and we can go from there....And while you're at it show me where Christ comes before the trib
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"And while you are at it..."
...keep in mind that I will look at whatever you say through the frame of reference I long ago concluded made sense to me, built so much based on it from that point forward - so good luck getting through all that with any real plea for objectivity, as I am completely convinced that my bias is sound, I should know, I view all things through it including whether or not it is sound, but you are welcome to try as I am convinced I am unbiased.
Try that foolishness in the world of math
...keep in mind that I will look at whatever you say through the frame of reference I long ago concluded made sense to me, built so much based on it from that point forward - so good luck getting through all that with any real plea for objectivity, as I am completely convinced that my bias is sound, I should know, I view all things through it including whether or not it is sound, but you are welcome to try as I am convinced I am unbiased.
Try that foolishness in the world of math
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Really?
Daniel mentioned Joel 3. Here's Joel 3, link included.
Joel 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
God Judges the Nations
3 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3) They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.
4) “Indeed, what have you to do with Me,
O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia?
Will you retaliate against Me?
But if you retaliate against Me,
Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head;
5) Because you have taken My silver and My gold,
And have carried into your temples My prized possessions.
6) Also the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem
You have sold to the Greeks,
That you may remove them far from their borders.
7) “Behold, I will raise them
Out of the place to which you have sold them,
And will return your retaliation upon your own head.
8) I will sell your sons and your daughters
Into the hand of the people of Judah,
And they will sell them to the Sabeans,[a]
To a people far off;
For the Lord has spoken.”
9) Proclaim this among the nations:
“Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10) Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’”
11) Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.
12) “Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13) Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15) The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16) The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.
17) “So you shall know that I am the Lord your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again.”
God Blesses His People
18) And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
The hills shall flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
A fountain shall flow from the house of the Lord
And water the Valley of Acacias.
19) “Egypt shall be a desolation,
And Edom a desolate wilderness,
Because of violence against the people of Judah,
For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20) But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21) For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted;
For the Lord dwells in Zion.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joel+3&version=NKJV
Joel 3 is all about the tribulation and the second coming of Christ.
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Joel 2:30-3:21 Explained
I haven't written any explanation on this forum about the book of Joel for at least 6 months now, and since there are new people following this forum, I thought it's time I post a new thread about this scripture.
There are numerous scriptures in the old testament about the coming judgement upon the earth during Christ's return. Joel 3 is no exception, however the book of Joel also reveal in chronological order the "two stages" of the coming days of the Lord with the tribulation between both events.
As with other threads I written about, it reveals the coming of the lord to rapture His church before the tribulation. Rapture then tribulation or rapture before wrath however one wishes to word it.
1) From Joel 2:30-32, this is about the rapture of the church and it will happen sometimes after the signs involving the sun and the moon. This is the Four Blood Moon Mark Biltz and John Hagee are preaching about. Notice in verse 31 it said the moon turns red like blood follow by before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord? This is the rapture.
Only one of the four blood moon will be observe over Israel. This happens on Sept 2015. The rest of the world will witness all four blood moons. Why is that? It's because of prophecy (Joel 2:30-31), everything in the bible evolves around Israel. To eliminate confusion, Israel will only witness the last blood moon and sometimes after that date is when the rapture happens, not before.
2) From Joel 3:1-17, this is a new chapter and the reason is because the tribulation is Daniel's 70th week. The church is not involve in Daniel's 70th week as this is why the rapture is at the end of chapter 2 while the tribulation starts in chapter 3.
Everything is self explanatory from verse 1 to 17, this is the tribulation. Verse 13 is the harvest of wrath explained in Rev 14:17-20, 19:15.
3) From verses 14-16 is the second day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation. Notice at verse 14 it said "For the day of the Lord is near?" This is the Second Coming.
Notice in verse 15, it said "The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness?"
Notice the moon grow dark in verse 15 as the stars diminishes their brightness but in chapter 2, verse 31, the moon turns red like blood with no mentioning of stars? This is a huge difference and a key.
I might need you guys to put on your thinking cap here because understanding verse 15 is crucial as I've seen John Hagee and Mark Biltz erroneously recite Matthew 24:29 when talking about the Four Blood Moons.
Matthew 24:29 is the same as Joel 3:15, "not" Joel 2:31. Joel 2:31 is the Blood Moon.
Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Okay so what causes the sun and moon to turn dark in Joel 3:15? The stars that diminishes their brightness are rockets and missiles, some nuclear. It's a reflection of war. The Middle East will go through a nuclear holocaust and burn. Thousands of oil wells will be set ablaze during the fighting in the tribulation. These two factors are what causes the black smokes and clouds that will blanket the Middle East and block out the sun and the moon diminishing their brightness. Near the end of the tribulation, the Middle East will be completely dark.
Zechariah 14:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
2 Peter 3:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Zechariah 14:5-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
5) Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6) It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7) It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
https://www.google.com/search?q=images+of+a+nuclear+blast&biw=1280&bih=598&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=cQoYVPOLK4rtoASUiIDgCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoxBG5zdxg
To recap, Joel 2:30-32 is the first day of the Lord and rapture, Joel 3:1-17 is the tribulation, and Joel 3:14-15 is the second day of the Lord and the second coming.
Rapture first follow by tribulation.
Joel 2:30-3:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
30) And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32) And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.
God Judges the Nations
3 For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3) They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.
4) Indeed, what have you to do with Me,
O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia?
Will you retaliate against Me?
But if you retaliate against Me,
Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head;
5) Because you have taken My silver and My gold,
And have carried into your temples My prized possessions.
6) Also the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem
You have sold to the Greeks,
That you may remove them far from their borders.
7) Behold, I will raise them
Out of the place to which you have sold them,
And will return your retaliation upon your own head.
8) I will sell your sons and your daughters
Into the hand of the people of Judah,
And they will sell them to the Sabeans,
To a people far off;
For the Lord has spoken.
9) Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10) Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, I am strong.
11) Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O Lord.
12) Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13) Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow
For their wickedness is great.
14) Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15) The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16) The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.
17) So you shall know that I am the Lord your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again.
God Blesses His People
18) And it will come to pass in that day
That the mountains shall drip with new wine,
The hills shall flow with milk,
And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water;
A fountain shall flow from the house of the Lord
And water the Valley of Acacias.
19) Egypt shall be a desolation,
And Edom a desolate wilderness,
Because of violence against the people of Judah,
For they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20) But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21) For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted;
For the Lord dwells in Zion.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joel+2%3A30-3%3A21&version=NKJV
.
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TPeterY,
if it is about the "trib" and so on , then there is no new heavens and earth because (the restoration) goes "on forever."
What you think is clear is hardly.
It is better to treat it as a picture of something else. Better to use what the NT says than to speculate on what it does not say. The NT handles Joel 2 for us.
if it is about the "trib" and so on , then there is no new heavens and earth because (the restoration) goes "on forever."
What you think is clear is hardly.
It is better to treat it as a picture of something else. Better to use what the NT says than to speculate on what it does not say. The NT handles Joel 2 for us.
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"How bout posting one"
How about many?
Your "just one" thing is nothing more that a debating tactic .... old and moldy stuff
This request is bogus and carries the seeds of deception
.... and you say "And while you're at it show me where Christ comes before the trib"
I already have ..... did you miss it?
Those who refute the Lord's promises will miss it
Ask yourself why you have a zeal for discounting this biblical truth
Someone has thrown you a curve ball ....reading others books, Internet videos, etc is not a good idea
Better to learn the truth for yourself from the Lord's Bible rather than to be carried off by a false stigma
How about many?
Your "just one" thing is nothing more that a debating tactic .... old and moldy stuff
This request is bogus and carries the seeds of deception
.... and you say "And while you're at it show me where Christ comes before the trib"
I already have ..... did you miss it?
Those who refute the Lord's promises will miss it
Ask yourself why you have a zeal for discounting this biblical truth
Someone has thrown you a curve ball ....reading others books, Internet videos, etc is not a good idea
Better to learn the truth for yourself from the Lord's Bible rather than to be carried off by a false stigma
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Interplanner
Newbie
I don't know what you are saying Daniel. Are you referring to something I said. It prob had to do with the people who look at one of my lists of passages and say I don't know what you mean or it can't be true. So I counter, OK, just take Rom 10:4 or Gal 3:17. If that's what you were referring to, then,
*you were totally unclear
*you need to retract the deception remark
*you were totally unclear
*you need to retract the deception remark
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No I do not need to retract the fact that people deceive [Matthew 24:4-5]
Do you ever read your Bible, or just other peoples books?
Try the Bible ..... maybe you will like it?
And by the way, my post was not directed to you .... look closely
Do you ever read your Bible, or just other peoples books?
Try the Bible ..... maybe you will like it?
And by the way, my post was not directed to you .... look closely
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Daniel,
I did finally find 'how about posting one'. Out of consideration for others here I put their names at the top when speaking to them to save people search time.
If you were saying I was decieving people, Mt 24:4 has nothing to do with our issue.
It is insulting to have some tell me to read the Bible. You might have noticed a bit of reading of it from my posts, but maybe you're too busy pasting from Debka.
I do enjoy it thoroughly. Justification by Christ from the debt of my sins; there is nothing like it; and it is the goal of the promises of God to boot, and grants me the same as promised to the true Israel: the world to come (Heb 2:5).
Another thing I've found in those 40 years: there is no 2P2P in the Bible. It is a mistake of Judaism. So the most useful thread at this forum is 'what is distinct from Judaism?'
I did finally find 'how about posting one'. Out of consideration for others here I put their names at the top when speaking to them to save people search time.
If you were saying I was decieving people, Mt 24:4 has nothing to do with our issue.
It is insulting to have some tell me to read the Bible. You might have noticed a bit of reading of it from my posts, but maybe you're too busy pasting from Debka.
I do enjoy it thoroughly. Justification by Christ from the debt of my sins; there is nothing like it; and it is the goal of the promises of God to boot, and grants me the same as promised to the true Israel: the world to come (Heb 2:5).
Another thing I've found in those 40 years: there is no 2P2P in the Bible. It is a mistake of Judaism. So the most useful thread at this forum is 'what is distinct from Judaism?'
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Friends please lets not get distracted here. I asked a questioned because i have heard different views and i will appreciate it if you give ur views without offending or taking offense.
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"Friends please lets not get distracted here. I asked a questioned because i have heard different views and i will appreciate it if you give ur views without offending or taking offense"
I agree, but there are people who fight against the Lord's Word and it must be defended just as the scriptures tell .... a stand must be taken especially when the defender is heckled by the offender
2 Timothy
4.I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
My response was to this standard off the wall statement made by those who discount the Lord's word on the subject at hand:
"We must be reading different Bibles,as nowhere did I see God's tribulation in those verses
"How bout posting one", and we can go from there....And while you're at it show me where Christ comes before the trib"
I consider this kind of comment very offensive ..... it is a debating tactic used over and over again for the purpose of taking a stand against the Lord's promise to keep His own from His coming day of judgment
This comes from sources who promote the idea that the "rapture" is a "lie of the devil"
I responded to your question and gave you some very solid and related information .... and immediately I get the stuff above from another poster
I do not like it, didn't ask for it, and do not accept the behavior
.... and I can even give more evidence of the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia
I agree, but there are people who fight against the Lord's Word and it must be defended just as the scriptures tell .... a stand must be taken especially when the defender is heckled by the offender
2 Timothy
4.I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
My response was to this standard off the wall statement made by those who discount the Lord's word on the subject at hand:
"We must be reading different Bibles,as nowhere did I see God's tribulation in those verses
"How bout posting one", and we can go from there....And while you're at it show me where Christ comes before the trib"
I consider this kind of comment very offensive ..... it is a debating tactic used over and over again for the purpose of taking a stand against the Lord's promise to keep His own from His coming day of judgment
This comes from sources who promote the idea that the "rapture" is a "lie of the devil"
I responded to your question and gave you some very solid and related information .... and immediately I get the stuff above from another poster
I do not like it, didn't ask for it, and do not accept the behavior
.... and I can even give more evidence of the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia
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Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
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The NT doesn't mention the rapture other than a couple passages about the soon expected end of the world in the letters to the Thess, explaining the catastrophic events in Israel in the 1st century. Whether is has ongoing usage is totally unclear.
People today usually read the Thess material, ignore the timestamps, and think it is going to happen now or soon.
People today usually read the Thess material, ignore the timestamps, and think it is going to happen now or soon.
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