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Are the Father and God Diffearnt/Seperate/Same?

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Optimus_P, Feb 7, 2002.

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  1. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    In one of the other posts it was mentioned in context that God and the Father are seperate entititys.

    I always thought that God/Father/Son are all the same entiety; but it seems that others do not think the same. Can you guys/gals post your thoughts on the issue?
     
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  2. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Optimus_P,

    I have always thought of it that God has 3 persons but one substance. Now what does that mean? I can only think of it as 3 different persoanas Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. But one substance. That means that they are all God equally and there is no part of the Holy Spirit that is not Jesus that is not God the Father. They hold all things in common. "They are One."

    I say all that but I do not completely understand it. Even in man's understanding I do not completly understand it.

    Blackhaw6
     
  3. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    To my way of thinking, Genesis holds the key to understanding the concept of the Trinity.

    Man was made in the image and likeness of God. Or, to put it another way, man is an analogue of God.

    Man, analogous to God, is body, soul, and spirit. It therefore would not be surprising if God had three "divisions" that correspond roughly to the "divisions" within a man.

    But are the "divisions" of man co-equal, or is there a superior rating for one over the another? Again, I believe that the spirit is superior (by "rank") to the flesh. This answers the questions that arise concerning Jesus's assigning the Father a superior position to Jesus: even after the ascension that superiority is stated.

    When referring to a person, one might refer to each (body, soul, spirit) as the man, or one might be referring to the three collectively as the person.
     
  4. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +231
    Messianic
    Simply put: there is one God.

    God is the Father.

    He is also Jesus Christ

    He is also the Holy Spirit that is with us.
     
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
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    An easy was I have thought about it that they are all of the same essence. Jesus is God the father is God and the HS is God. Just like ice is H20 water is H20 and vapor is h20. Now ice isn't water and vapor isn't ice...not a perfect analogy but a good one.
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    The prophet Isaiah writes that there is only one God (Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9). The prophet Isaiah identifies this ONLY ONE God as the FATHER (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8). The prophet Malachi identifies the FATHER as the one God who CREATED us all (Mal. 2:10).

    Jesus identified the FATHER as the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1) and apostle Paul taught that for them (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the Father.

    Jesus said that he was ASCENDING to HIS Father and to HIS God (John 20:17). Apostles Paul and Peter also teach that Jesus HAS a God and Father (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3). Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at the right hand of God (Col. 3:1).

    These verses prove that Jesus and God the Father are SEPARATE and DISTINCT.

    Before Jesus died he said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit (Luke 23:46). This proves that the SPIRIT of Jesus is NOT God.

    Apostle Paul writes that there is ONLY ONE God and only one MEDIATOR between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). At the time this was written, Jesus was ALREADY sitting at the right hand of God. This proves that Jesus is the SAME (MAN) yesterday, today and forever (Heb. 13:8).

    Ed
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Ed, I am glad to see you actually reading your bible (or so I hope and you're not just getting this from one of your tracks at your church). Let's look at those verses though shall we?

    "Is. 44:8" I this verse the name "father" is not mentioned at all. What the verse does say is "Is there any God besides me?" and no there is not. God is the only God.

    "46:9" Again here the word "father" is never mentioned. the verse does say "For I am God, and there is no other. I am God and there is no one like Me and that is right..there is only one God. Trinity doesn't dispute that.

    "Is. 63:16" The word used for father is ownership in nature. It doen't say the father is the only true God here either ed.


    "Is. 64:8" Niether does it here say the father is the only person in the trinity.

    "Mal. 2:10" Here also it doesn't say that the father is the only person in the trinity. "Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us?" Trinity docterine answers both of these with yes, as they should be.

    "These verses prove that Jesus and God the Father are SEPARATE and DISTINCT. "

    yes, that is right, trinity docterine says that..Jesus and the father are seperate and discinct, but both are God and God is one.

    "This proves that the SPIRIT of Jesus is NOT God. "

    NO it doesn't hahaha..it proves, as trinity docterine says, Jesus and the father are distinct but of the same essenice.

    You have misapplied scripture here ed. None of it says Jesus is not God.
     
  8. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    I always viewed God as trinity. Three in one
    God the Father,
    God the Son, and
    God the Holy Spirit

    All has their roles to play.
    I see them as like in a project.

    The Father - the manager - plans the sophisticated project and what to do

    Jesus - the engineer - told the people what they need to do and obey for the plans to be accomplish.

    Holy Spirit - the constructor - touching people life and making them know the right direction of the engineer.

    All has different roles to play but all are improtance.

    God bless
    Have a nice day! God loves you all
     
  9. Wave

    Wave member

    114
    +0
    Christian
    Benny Hinn gave a easy picture of this; the sun.
    God Father - the sun
    God Son - the light that comes from the sun
    God Spirit - the heat tahs you feel

    I hope this was an easy picture, there is so much to talk about when it comes about Father, Son and Spirit. I will give you an advice; read "Good morning Holy Spirit" od Benny Hinn. It's an awesome. He explains the Holy Spirit and his will but also gives a great picture about the Father-Son-Spirit. Blessings!
     
  10. billy

    billy New Member

    10
    +0
    as far as benny hinn is concerened i once heard him say there were 9 different distinctions to god, not three. i believe that God is the Father, our creator, and his son is Jesus Christ. many verses in the bible support that God and Jesus are separate and distinct. In Isa. 40:28 it says God never faints or gets weary, In John4:6 it talks about Jesus being weary. God is spirit, Jesus is flesh. i believe the concept of the trinity was started at the council of trent around the 1400's. even Jesus calls the Father His God. I believe the words of Jesus speak for them selves. perhpas im not to clear, but i am trying to understand things. thanks
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    *shudders at the mention of the name of Hinn* the guy has problems..he isn't very biblical about his teaching.
     
  12. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
    +0
    Jesus is fully God and fully man. He had two natures while here on earth. The Trinity fits all scripture. You can not find any verse that this doctrin does not fit. We believe in one God existing in 3 persons. One what and three whos. Jesus is the begining and ending, the alpha and omega, he who was, who is, who is to come. The Almighty.


    Phil 2:5-11
    5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
    7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
    11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    (NKJ)

    There is only one true God
    John 17:3
    3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
    (NAU)

    I Jn 5:20
    20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
    (NAU)

    If Jesus is not the true God then Thomas was wrong and Jesus would have told him so.
    John 20:28-29
    28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
    29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed {are} they who did not see, and {yet} believed."
    (NAU)
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    US-Libertarian
    Yup, that's right about the John 20 passage. What is the correct response if someone worships you and you are not God

    Rev 22:8 "I, Joh, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been shwing them to me. But he said to me, ":Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your borthers the prophets and all who keep words of this book. Woship God!"
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    LouisBooth,

    Louis, I'm glad you finally realized that I am actually quoting from the Bible. I have been doing this since the very first day I came aboard but you simply ignore the verses I quote and go right on with your PERSONAL opinions.

    Open your eyes Louis. These verses tell us that there is ONLY ONE God - NOT three, which people blindly count as ONE.

    Open your eyes and use your brain Louis. What these verses tell us is that the ONLY ONE God mentioned in Is. 44:8 and Is. 46:9 is the FATHER. These verses do NOT mention Jesus nor give any idea of a Trinity.

    Where in these verses quoted above can you find this absurd idea that Jesus and the Father are both God yet ONE God? The Trinity is NOT the truth Louis. It does NOT agree with scripture.

    Again you say, "as the Trinity says" giving the impression that the Trinity doctrine takes precedence over what the Bible teaches. The Trinity doctrine is MAN-MADE. It is NOT supported by the Bible. The Bible does NOT follow what the Trinity doctrine teaches.

    Do these verses even mention Jesus or the Trinity Louis? Does any of these verses say that Jesus is God? Aren't these verses true? How do you say did I misapply scripture?

    Edpobre
     
  15. edjones

    edjones Active Member

    699
    +0
    Or more Simply put: Three in one and one in three and the one in the middle died for me!
     
  16. Wave

    Wave member

    114
    +0
    Christian
    LouisBooth; why do you think so about Benny?
     
  17. Wave

    Wave member

    114
    +0
    Christian
    Edpobre, you wrote; "Before Jesus died he said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit (Luke 23:46). This proves that the SPIRIT of Jesus is NOT God."

    Jesus had a spirit, like you and I have, we have all as human beeing a spirit inside of us. It's the only part of su that lives after death. The Holy Spirit is not the same spirit, He's God's Spirit, he lived in Jesus too, but Jesus knew that He didn't have to commend him somewhere...

    Jesus was a man when he was on earth, he was a man like you adn me, but still God. I can't get this, but i don't want to get it 100%, in that case I would know to much;) If we say that Jesus was something else then God we are worng, sorry! And if we sat that the Holy Spirit is sth else than god we are still wrog. God is One and He's 3 in the same way. Read the Bible and you will find out, He is 3, and still One, the only One!:) Blessings!
     
  18. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
    +1
    That's a very good example. The sunday school teachers used it at my old church and its the best one I ever heard.

    All look different, feel different etc.. but they all consist of the same properties.

     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    edjones,

    That's a FALSE hope you got there! Jesus died for the Church. He GAVE his life for it (Eph. 5:25). If you are not a member of Christ's BODY or church, you are NOT covered by his blood. Thus, your sins are NOT forgiven and you are NOT saved.

    Edpobre
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
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    "How do you say did I misapply scripture? "

    You insert words ed. You say things like, and this means...or by this christ means..and you say things that are contrary to the very verse with no other verses or context to back it up!!!
    To the question about Hinn..Read christianity in Crisis. I didn't believe it until I heard hinn say it on the tapes that come with the package I bought. Nutty stuff..that guy is off his rocker.
     
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