Are Poor People to Blame for their Poverty?

OldWiseGuy

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The greatest impediment to success is human nature. Overcome that (even somewhat) and you'll have fewer problems moving ahead. Classes in "Success" should be taught from the earliest grades, even if parents don't like it. As it is kids are taught the route to failure, and they pretty much favor it over success.
 
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Hank77

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The greatest impediment to success is human nature. Overcome that (even somewhat) and you'll have fewer problems moving ahead. Classes in "Success" should be taught from the earliest grades, even if parents don't like it. As it is kids are taught the route to failure, and they pretty much favor it over success.
One thing that should be brought up in high school is the advantages of attending night classes where there are many non-trad students who are already working in related fields. My oldest did this. She worked all day and went full-time at night. Almost all the other students were non-trad. and worked in businesses such as Liberty Mutual, banking institutions, and accounting firms. There was at least one attorney that I know of and one in IT for Liberty Mutual. The people she met in those classes became a network for her when she graduated with a degree in accounting. Through one of them she met a man who became her mentor for several years. He is now retired but was a VP of KPMG in Boston. When she bought her home she already had a contact at the bank that knew her personally and the type of character that she has, honest, hard working, and fiscally conserative. He got her a mortgage at a really low interest rate. Networking is an invaluable asset.
Another advantage is being able to work a full time job. She graduated without any debt at all.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think there needs to be better statistics about poverty. There may not be as big a (fixable) problem as is thought. I went over the case histories of fatal shootings some time ago and discovered that there really wasn't a huge fixable problem. Fixable is the standard that should be used in evaluating any problem. We shouldn't be wasting time and money on problems that cannot be fixed. Kind of like triage.
 
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rturner76

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Whenever I read an article (and I use the word “article” loosely when discussing anything in HuffPo) there are two things I immediately want to know. Exactly what questions were asked and what was the sample size. You would be surprised how many assertions are made based on so-called scholarly research that involved flawed methodology, incredibly small sample sizes (“90% of people report”…based on 18 out of 20 people surveyed), and people who took the results out of context to suit their own agendas. I’ve been involved in research long enough to know that a lot of it, even after peer review, is pure bunk.

If someone was to ask me, “Do you think most poor people, with the proper help, are capable of improving their economic situations?” I would resoundingly answer yes. One person would use that answer to say I’m blaming poor people for their poverty, a negative view. Another may say I believe people are capable of change, a positive view. Things like this are generally all about the spin, and when it’s printed in HuffPo you can rest assured it will somehow attack conservatives and/or Christians.
I think it's actually two different questions. Is it poor people's fault that their poor? That is a question that relates to blame and shame being placed upon an entire class of people. It wasn't, is it some poor people's fault they are poor? Which is more on par with, is it possible for some poor people to succeed? Those questions speak more to individual circumstances. Though philosophically, some people (not me) would say no poor people are at fault because we live in a society that has rich and poor people. If that wasn't the case there would be no poor people. That is the dream of Communism but it usually doesn't work out because even in that system you have government officials who are higher paid that others and masses of people who end up doing without because the people controlling things begin to hoard stuff like rich people and give stuff away to win elections and all kinds of government corruption and black markets for stolen government products that government employees rip off. Whatever, that's a different topic
 
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rturner76

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Poor people may not be to 'blame' for their poverty, but at some point they are responsibility for it (they 'own' it).

What we should do is hire a foreign company (maybe several that are unaware of the others) to come and study our poverty problem. We can't seem to be objective.
Yeah the Right Wing "not my problem" approach. Some even take that approach with their own family and won't take in their homeless relatives so they can learn "tough love" How about just some regular love?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Yeah the Right Wing "not my problem" approach. Some even take that approach with their own family and won't take in their homeless relatives so they can learn "tough love" How about just some regular love?

I'm a conservative and took my mother in (at great expense) for a period of eight years before she went to a nursing home to live out her final days. My liberal brother and very liberal sister offered praise for my efforts but not a penny to help with the costs although both were well able to do so.
 
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381465

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I'm a conservative and took my mother in (at great expense) for a period of eight years before she went to a nursing home to live out her final days. My liberal brother and very liberal sister offered praise for my efforts but not a penny to help with the costs although both were well able to do so.

I'm sorry you were judged and judged wrongly.

I wouldn't call myself a conservative, but lean that way. My wife and I bought a new central air conditioning unit for her 90 year old grandmother one summer 7 or 8 years ago with 90 degree tempreatures. Her old unit had died and was beyond repair. My inlaws (Democrat, retired and very wealthy) wanted to wait for a month until they got home to bargain for the best price and were angry that I called, got 2 bids from reputable companies and paid for the unit. They acted like they were getting screwed and were trying to bargain down reimbursement. Told them to stick it.
 
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rturner76

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I'm a conservative and took my mother in (at great expense) for a period of eight years before she went to a nursing home to live out her final days. My liberal brother and very liberal sister offered praise for my efforts but not a penny to help with the costs although both were well able to do so.
I guess in that regard every individual is will help others or not based on what's in their heart. Personal experience with members of my family lead me to believe something about people with a particular political perspective's character when of course not all people are the same. I was wrong to imply that.
 
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rturner76

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I'm sorry you were judged and judged wrongly.

I wouldn't call myself a conservative, but lean that way. My wife and I bought a new central air conditioning unit for her 90 year old grandmother one summer 7 or 8 years ago with 90 degree tempreatures. Her old unit had died and was beyond repair. My inlaws (Democrat, retired and very wealthy) wanted to wait for a month until they got home to bargain for the best price and were angry that I called, got 2 bids from reputable companies and paid for the unit. They acted like they were getting screwed and were trying to bargain down reimbursement. Told them to stick it.

I have found in my personal experience that many (not all) people with wealth do everything in their power to keep it. My so called sister who recently bragged about having almost a million dollars in her 401K, has a 5 bedroom house on the lake with her husband here and a 3 bedroom house in Florida that sits empty 85% of the year. When me and my mom found ourselves in a situation where we weren't going to have a place to live, not only would my sister not take in my 77 year old mother into one of her houses, she wouldn't co-sign for her apartment. I pretty much disowned her after that.
 
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381465

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I have found in my personal experience that many (not all) people with wealth do everything in their power to keep it. My so called sister who recently bragged about having almost a million dollars in her 401K, has a 5 bedroom house on the lake with her husband here and a 3 bedroom house in Florida that sits empty 85% of the year. When me and my mom found ourselves in a situation where we weren't going to have a place to live, not only would my sister not take in my 77 year old mother into one of her houses, she wouldn't co-sign for her apartment. I pretty much disowned her after that.
I can relate. My in laws are probably the most selfish people I have ever know.
We were newly married and semi struggling, but happy. Young brother in law acted stupidly and wrecked motorcycle. Hospitalized for 5 days, released but needed care. We moved him in and wife tooK off work to care for him.
In laws couldn't be bothered to return from vacation early.
Yuck.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I disagree with some of this. While a lack of effort can and will certainly lead to poverty ie, you quit your job for no reason and don't get another one, yes surely a lack of effort has lead to your poverty.

Now in situations where there is generation after generation of poverty in a family, this is what you have called a "difficult circumstance" and I disagree that the only way a difficult circumstance can affect poverty is a lack of effort. If a baby is reared from the age on 0-5 and not been read to, spoken to with proper English, has been told they are "bad" "no good" and made to feel like a burden to their parents/family, not taught table manners, social graces, and learned fear rather than respect. This child will not have been given the mental tools, sometimes physical tools meaning high sugar, fat, and carbohydrate diets, low in quality proteins and vitamins and whole grains that a child need for body and brain development. The child I am speaking of will enter the school system with no experience with numbers and letters, possibly physically and/or mentally deficient, low self esteem, low to no respect for self and adults, sometimes mentally ill, with no support at home even being totally unsupervised at home in front of the TV from the time they wake up until bed time.

As this young person tries and fails all through school, having never been able to form quality relationships with people that will be consistent and responsible in their lives, they drop out of school or barely make it through school never really gaining the skills necessary to hold down a full time job or do the kind of work it takes to get through college.

This isn't a racial thing, a inner city or rural thing, or a undocumented thing. It's not even the majority of poor people but it is the story of many Americans who never learned how to learn or grow in any meaningful way or expect anything better for themselves but poverty and misery. Not for lack of trying but lack of skill set from jump.

Not a good example of the average poor person.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I guess in that regard every individual is will help others or not based on what's in their heart. Personal experience with members of my family lead me to believe something about people with a particular political perspective's character when of course not all people are the same. I was wrong to imply that.

I have to amend my statement about my brother and sister. Although they pretty much turned their back on my mother's needs at the time they have been very generous toward me personally, especially my (late) brother. Why they never offered to help with my mother is still a mystery to me.
 
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rturner76

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Not a good example of the average poor person.
Those are extreme examples but they illustrate how not getting what you need growing up, weather it be food, clothing, shelter,attention,medical care, education actually perpetuates the belief that either you are not worth trying or trying does no good. Many poor people can escape this frame of mind and either work hard, get an education, or both. Also many people in the world survive SARS but so many don't, we need to allocate resources to treat it until we find a cure.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Those are extreme examples but they illustrate how not getting what you need growing up, weather it be food, clothing, shelter,attention,medical care, education actually perpetuates the belief that either you are not worth trying or trying does no good. Many poor people can escape this frame of mind and either work hard, get an education, or both. Also many people in the world survive SARS but so many don't, we need to allocate resources to treat it until we find a cure.

Like most problems we need to deal with the root causes, not so much the effects. For example, it would be much better for humanity if the resources now used for treatment were used for prevention. Of course this means that many that already have these problems will not be 'cured', but the next generation will be free of them.
 
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