Are Poor People to Blame for their Poverty?

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
The obvious answer is lack of effort, which causes difficult circumstances. The only way difficult circumstances can affect poverty is by the lack of effort needed to correct those circumstances. The only way that difficult circumstances can cause a lack of effort is by giving up in hopelessness any effort to change them.

I disagree with some of this. While a lack of effort can and will certainly lead to poverty ie, you quit your job for no reason and don't get another one, yes surely a lack of effort has lead to your poverty.

Now in situations where there is generation after generation of poverty in a family, this is what you have called a "difficult circumstance" and I disagree that the only way a difficult circumstance can affect poverty is a lack of effort. If a baby is reared from the age on 0-5 and not been read to, spoken to with proper English, has been told they are "bad" "no good" and made to feel like a burden to their parents/family, not taught table manners, social graces, and learned fear rather than respect. This child will not have been given the mental tools, sometimes physical tools meaning high sugar, fat, and carbohydrate diets, low in quality proteins and vitamins and whole grains that a child need for body and brain development. The child I am speaking of will enter the school system with no experience with numbers and letters, possibly physically and/or mentally deficient, low self esteem, low to no respect for self and adults, sometimes mentally ill, with no support at home even being totally unsupervised at home in front of the TV from the time they wake up until bed time.

As this young person tries and fails all through school, having never been able to form quality relationships with people that will be consistent and responsible in their lives, they drop out of school or barely make it through school never really gaining the skills necessary to hold down a full time job or do the kind of work it takes to get through college.

This isn't a racial thing, a inner city or rural thing, or a undocumented thing. It's not even the majority of poor people but it is the story of many Americans who never learned how to learn or grow in any meaningful way or expect anything better for themselves but poverty and misery. Not for lack of trying but lack of skill set from jump.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I disagree with some of this. While a lack of effort can and will certainly lead to poverty ie, you quit your job for no reason and don't get another one, yes surely a lack of effort has lead to your poverty.

Now in situations where there is generation after generation of poverty in a family, this is what you have called a "difficult circumstance" and I disagree that the only way a difficult circumstance can affect poverty is a lack of effort. If a baby is reared from the age on 0-5 and not been read to, spoken to with proper English, has been told they are "bad" "no good" and made to feel like a burden to their parents/family, not taught table manners, social graces, and learned fear rather than respect. This child will not have been given the mental tools, sometimes physical tools meaning high sugar, fat, and carbohydrate diets, low in quality proteins and vitamins and whole grains that a child need for body and brain development. The child I am speaking of will enter the school system with no experience with numbers and letters, possibly physically and/or mentally deficient, low self esteem, low to no respect for self and adults, sometimes mentally ill, with no support at home even being totally unsupervised at home in front of the TV from the time they wake up until bed time.

As this young person tries and fails all through school, having never been able to form quality relationships with people that will be consistent and responsible in their lives, they drop out of school or barely make it through school never really gaining the skills necessary to hold down a full time job or do the kind of work it takes to get through college.

This isn't a racial thing, a inner city or rural thing, or a undocumented thing. It's not even the majority of poor people but it is the story of many Americans who never learned how to learn or grow in any meaningful way or expect anything better for themselves but poverty and misery. Not for lack of trying but lack of skill set from jump.

These are familiar excuses for failure and are largely false.

At some point in such a person's life they 'own' their past, and except for true mental or physical defect have their entire lives to get it right. Too many people believe that because they haven't achieved such and such within a certain time frame that they are failures. Also false is the belief that there are only a few paths to success.

Everyone has the rest of their lives to succeed, so I suggest that these people take good care of their health.
 
Upvote 0

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,354
Clarence Center NY USA
✟237,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Or any obligation on another.

I find it very strange that there are Christians that feel the need to force others to pay for increasing the financial resources of the poor. We are called to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison, to care for widows and orphans etc. . We are not called to use coercive force in an attempt to order society according to our desires.
As I said being poor is not immoral or a crime and being poor and Christian ought to be seen as a blessing as there is less of the world to get between us and God. Yet we often act as if being financially less prosperous than others is a stigma that needs to be expunged by forcibly removing the finances of those with more and giving it to those with less. IMO if one has food and shelter and God one is has everything one needs. If one's needs are provided for one ought not be discontented. Who is it that insists that we should be discontented as long as we have less than others?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
These are familiar excuses for failure and are largely false.

At some point in such a person's life they 'own' their past, and except for true mental or physical defect have their entire lives to get it right. Too many people believe that because they haven't achieved such and such within a certain time frame that they are failures. Also false is the belief that there are only a few paths to success.

Everyone has the rest of their lives to succeed, so I suggest that these people take good care of their health.
So are you the kind of person that thinks mental illness is a made up concept? When it comes to things like things like: depression, anxiety, bi-polar disorder, panic disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Eating Disorder, Substance Abuse Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Specific Phobias (ie heights, socializing, being outside, water etc.), Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and Insomnia, do you believe that we can just reason with ourselves and said disorder will go away? I ask again, Do you believe diagnosis like these are valid and applicable to some people?

Well, the world's medical community and I believe they do exist, they do affect the ability of many people to function who have had childhood trauma or did not get their needs met in early childhood. There are also many not born into poverty who are affected by these illnesses who have a chemical imbalance in their brains or trauma that makes them sock through no action that they have taken. These maladies persist in the poor because there are less mental health resources available to poor people,especially children

Now I understand personal responsibility but to say that what you learned in early childhood should not affect your ability to succeed I thinkis not quite seeing what's really going on here
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
So are you the kind of person that thinks mental illness is a made up concept? When it comes to things like things like: depression, anxiety, bi-polar disorder, panic disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Eating Disorder, Substance Abuse Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Specific Phobias (ie heights, socializing, being outside, water etc.), Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and Insomnia, do you believe that we can just reason with ourselves and said disorder will go away? I ask again, Do you believe diagnosis like these are valid and applicable to some people?

Well, the world's medical community and I believe they do exist, they do affect the ability of many people to function who have had childhood trauma or did not get their needs met in early childhood. There are also many not born into poverty who are affected by these illnesses who have a chemical imbalance in their brains or trauma that makes them sock through no action that they have taken. These maladies persist in the poor because there are less mental health resources available to poor people,especially children

Now I understand personal responsibility but to say that what you learned in early childhood should not affect your ability to succeed I thinkis not quite seeing what's really going on here

If such childhood disadvantages grow into debilitating or handicapping mental or physical problems of course they are excused.

I think what one 'learns' or experiences in childhood can be overcome in time, if it hasn't led to the aforementioned mental problems.
 
Upvote 0

Waggles

Acts 2:38
Supporter
Feb 7, 2017
768
476
69
South Oz
Visit site
✟112,244.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Widowed
I am no Marxist socialist, but Karl was an insightful bloke who commented on some real economic and political truths concerning how this world operates.
Perhaps his most true observation is the following:

"Poverty does not exist besides wealth, it is the source of wealth."

I agree with him.
And from a Christian perspective poverty and being poor is very much a product of a fallen world
full of sin and inequality and a grabbing of worldly treasures and riches which empowers some to
become elites and lord it over others.
Thus we end up with entrenched class and caste systems that are legally and violently enforced.

Those on this thread trashing the poor and blaming them for their circumstances and choices are
lacking in compassion and failing to understand the evils of this world.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle,
than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Matthew 19:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JackRT
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am no Marxist socialist, but Karl was an insightful bloke who commented on some real economic and political truths concerning how this world operates.
Perhaps his most true observation is the following:

"Poverty does not exist besides wealth, it is the source of wealth."

I agree with him.
And from a Christian perspective poverty and being poor is very much a product of a fallen world
full of sin and inequality and a grabbing of worldly treasures and riches which empowers some to
become elites and lord it over others.
Thus we end up with entrenched class and caste systems that are legally and violently enforced.

Those on this thread trashing the poor and blaming them for their circumstances and choices are
lacking in compassion and failing to understand the evils of this world.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle,
than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Matthew 19:

Several things jump out in this account.

Jesus was offering the man immediate discipleship (he only 'lacked one thing'. That would make him a pretty good candidate).

What was the "it" the disciples heard? At first glance it appears they heard that it would only be extremely difficult for rich people to enter the kingdom. This makes no sense based on their response of, "who then can be saved", as if everyone were rich as well.

I believe they were responding to the whole conversation, focusing on the exhortation to 'sell everything and give to the poor'. They immediately realized that if everyone sold everything and gave it to the poor they would merely be trading places with the poor, who would then need to again sell the stuff and find other poor people to give to; an endless zero sum game.

Regarding Marx; he was talking about Russia, not America. Here the poor can succeed along side of the rich, even becoming rich themselves. In fact the prospect of becoming rich here is the great allure to many immigrants.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Let's be honest, capitalism requires a vulnerable, bottom tier of workers. Many jobs don't pay well and there is no advancement in their future. We need people perpetually hungry and desperate enough to do them.

Your post shows an extraordinary insight. Thank you. It is so, so easy to blame the victim when you are speaking out of privilege.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Regarding Marx; he was talking about Russia, not America. Here the poor can succeed along side of the rich, even becoming rich themselves. In fact the prospect of becoming rich here is the great allure to many immigrants.

True. But the road to riches is much easier in a Mercedes Benz than on a bicycle.
 
Upvote 0

Waggles

Acts 2:38
Supporter
Feb 7, 2017
768
476
69
South Oz
Visit site
✟112,244.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Widowed
What was the "it" the disciples heard?
The it you refer to was verse 24 ...

Read Leviticus 25 and the Law concerning The Year Of Jubilee.
here you will read of God's plan to maintain equality amongst Israel and to avoid the growth of
wealth at the expense of the poor.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Eryk

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 29, 2005
5,113
2,377
58
Maryland
✟109,945.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Too bad it did not work.
The jubilee years? Israel never tried it, so God gave the land rest during the captivity for seventy sabbath years.

2 Chronicles 36:20-21
20 He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.
 
Upvote 0

PreviouslySeeking...

Well-Known Member
May 9, 2017
646
680
49
Seattle
✟85,757.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
On a side note. Will some of you people quit equating poverty with not working, not being willing to work?

Please take a look at what your average unskilled job pays in your area and then look at what the cost of living is.

I live & work just outside of Seattle. There are many homeless here who are employed.

Many employers cut their costs by hiring people for shift work based on an "as needed" range.
These people are then scheduled for less than the minimum # of hours to provide full time benefits. This forces people into getting a 2nd part time job if they can manage it.

That might sound like good money, but it also means no medical coverage and no PTO. Shoot, 1 good flu or injury and they could lose 1 or both jobs. How is that so you wonder? Well, every job I have ever had required a Drs note to return after 3 days out sick. Not an issue when you have insurance, but without insurance, hmm. You have to find a free or sliding scale clinic that is open and can see you- better chance there is one in an urban area- but they will also be swamped. Not urban- those clinics will have much more limited days and hours of operation. If you go to the county ER - you are going to end up with a huge bill. So what do you do? You usually drag yourself back as soon as you can without the Dr visit and plead for understanding. Oh, and try to figure out how you can make up for the days of work you missed, unpaid.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ygrene Imref

Well-Known Member
Feb 21, 2017
2,636
1,085
New York, NY
✟70,839.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
I just read this article in the HuffPost about it, and it seems that Republicans and Democrats feel very differently about this, and that white Christians, in particular, are more likely to blame the poor for being poor.

I am writing this not to condemn people who feel differently from me. Like you, I've known people who gamed the system, and I know people whose backgrounds meant they never had a chance, and I don't think any of us would say "all of the poor" were to blame for their condition--or that "none" were.

Here's the article link, and a quote, and I will tell you what my opinion is and why.

Christians Are More Likely To Say It's Poor People's Own Fault That They're Poor



My feelings, that they aren't responsible, is based on my life experience.

Evaluating applicants for Habitat for Humanity houses, for example, has shown me what it's like for poor people to buy a car...or go to a hospital....

One person worked in a factory for 20 years---and after she lost her job her new job paid 25% less (and her old job didn't pay great.)

Car loans have disastrous interest rates. People go to emergency rooms and when they haven't made a payment in a few years their medical debt is erased. Of course, their credit is still shot for years..do you know that people with better credit ratings pay less for homeowners' and car insurance?

If they live in small towns (or the inner city) there are no inexpensive places to shop, because they aren't high-profit areas for people to do business in. People with higher incomes get all sorts of incentives and freebies that poor people don't because wealthier people have more bargaining power.

I consider myself comfortable, not wealthy, but last year we had two free plane trips, about $500 in credit card rebates, etc. We buy a lot of things on credit and pay our bills every month...we recently bought a car and got $1400 off from GM card credits (5 points per dollar).

More comfortable people live in areas with better schools for their children. And when their children graduate, their parents often have friends or family who will help them get their foot in the door in big companies.

I have never had to drive a car with a broken windshield for a year because I couldn't afford a new one. My comprehensive insurance took care of that.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. If we were to fill an imaginary "basket" with goods and services, exactly equal, it would cost a poor person much more than a middle class one, and even more for a wealthy one.

It makes me feel bad--

It is overwhelmingly easy to blame the poor for their destitution if you ignore the socioeconomic, psychological and institutional paradigms set up to keep poor people poor, and rich people rich. Even more, the boundary that separates these classes is thinning out by design (the alleged "middle class.")

In fact, I would venture to say it is the result of the educational system that prevents anyone from truly understanding how one can become impoverished to no fault of the individual.

Of course, there are cases of poeple that make silly, irresponsible decisions. There is also the case of people who, by providence, are chosen to be "poor (although you are really rich)" (2 Corinthians 8:9, Revelation 2:9.)

I was destitute by circumstance I would like to think was no fault of my own (deception, wrongful accusations,) but the experience actually showed me how to be rich. He (Christ) isn't being overly spiritual when He says the riches of this earth are marginal at best compared to the Kingdom within you - and that the cache you store is for eternity, as the fleeting paradigms of worldly richness have no foundation. In that time, I learned what family, friends and associations meant, so that now I can better live a life with the science and hindsight into the world as we know it today - for God.

The reason I believe destitution is a perpetual thing (since antiquity,) is because there is an illusion that one must accept destitution as a providence of God. This is the thing wealthy swindlers of paradigms past (and current) have said in order to sedate the mind of one impoverished. There are also cliches used (such as "I am rich in spirit" ... and also rich in capital) to induce feelings of contentment: making the best with what you have as being the mettle of a (wo)man. Several institutional, educational and social paradigms use this to keep people positions "where they belong."


In the way that people allegedly elect the governments to handle these paradigms, it is all of our fault. In terms of an individual human basis - it is still all of our faults. We do not "keep" each other; we judge, ridicule, scoff and blame. So, the perpetuity of destitution falls on the "rulers" but it also falls on all of us for seeing it and not coming together to fundamentally change it. There are 70,000,000+ "rulers," and 6,930,000,000+ humans; this should be easy work by the numbers, and even easier once "we, collectively" are educated, and relieved of our collective ignorance.
 
Upvote 0

Waggles

Acts 2:38
Supporter
Feb 7, 2017
768
476
69
South Oz
Visit site
✟112,244.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Widowed
Maybe the way to overcome poverty and being poor is to become a politician.
They know how to enrich themselves at the expense of us little people.
Heard that Al Gore is worth some $230 million.
Nothing has changed since the French Revolution.
We still have political and economic elites that are carried on the backs of peasants,
the working poor and the disenfranchised.
Nothing new under the Sun.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ygrene Imref
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Whenever I read an article (and I use the word “article” loosely when discussing anything in HuffPo) there are two things I immediately want to know. Exactly what questions were asked and what was the sample size. You would be surprised how many assertions are made based on so-called scholarly research that involved flawed methodology, incredibly small sample sizes (“90% of people report”…based on 18 out of 20 people surveyed), and people who took the results out of context to suit their own agendas. I’ve been involved in research long enough to know that a lot of it, even after peer review, is pure bunk.

If someone was to ask me, “Do you think most poor people, with the proper help, are capable of improving their economic situations?” I would resoundingly answer yes. One person would use that answer to say I’m blaming poor people for their poverty, a negative view. Another may say I believe people are capable of change, a positive view. Things like this are generally all about the spin, and when it’s printed in HuffPo you can rest assured it will somehow attack conservatives and/or Christians.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Poor people may not be to 'blame' for their poverty, but at some point they are responsibility for it (they 'own' it).

What we should do is hire a foreign company (maybe several that are unaware of the others) to come and study our poverty problem. We can't seem to be objective.
 
Upvote 0