Are People Basically Good or Basically Evil?

Are People Basically Good or Basically Evil?

  • People are basically good

    Votes: 5 23.8%
  • People are basically evil

    Votes: 5 23.8%
  • Deep down, most people are good

    Votes: 1 4.8%
  • Deep down, all people are evil

    Votes: 10 47.6%

  • Total voters
    21

jimmyjimmy

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I think people are more psychologically complicated than labels such as "good" and "evil" can suffice.

Some modern christians like to use the term "broken", and I think that is more apt. A broken thing can potentially be fixed, without necessarily judging its worth.

Broken, used alone, is not a helpful term. It's a term used strictly of victims, and does not convey our culpability, our rebellion against our Maker.

Having an incorrect diagnosis means that we get the incorrect treatment, and we remain "broken".

If your problem is that we are "broken", counseling or psychiatric care could potential fix us, but if we are rebels who have been alienated from God, if we have violated the covenant, then we need what only Christ and His cross can provide for us - forgiveness and reconciliation.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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People are instriscially oriented toward the good. People that believe otherwise are projecting some form of psychological abuse or perverted religious indoctrination. It was this belief that justified so many of the evils of modern times such as slavery, libertarianism and the twisted sociology of Hobbes, Hume, Locke Rousseau, et al.

If you take five seconds to distance yourself from the idea that you should convince a person they are worthless unless they believe as you do, you'll see the abusive and twisted nature of this type of thinking.

Another view that could have spared Christ a cross. . .
 
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RadiantGrace

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God tells us this about man and evil, and nothing has changed since that ancient time.
Gen 8
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

You are using this to support the notion that human beings are totally depraved?
 
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RadiantGrace

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Oh, no. People are basically good (see above).

Here's your verse:

Matthew 7:11


If calling people evil is abuse, then you just called Jesus abusive. I strive to be like Jesus. That's what it means to be a Christian.

I stated that telling people they are all bad and in need of your religion is a form of abusive cultic behavior. That Jesus acknowledged that people did evil is an entirely different matter.

Accepting that there are people that do bad things is different from finding vulnerable people to prey upon and call evil and in need of your ideology or religion.
 
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RadiantGrace

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Another view that could have spared Christ a cross. . .

How does not accepting the belief that humans are totally depraved make the death and resurrection of Christ needless? Because the vast majority of Christians and Christian theologians living today and living in Heaven accepted the fact that while humans are not completely evil, their brokeness and the effects of sin prevent human beings from meriting the perfection required of Heaven.

Human beings are incapable of living a life of perfection and for that reason, we need Christ. To suppose that imperfection means totally depravity is obviously a false conclusion, as is the notion that Christ is only necessary if we are totally depraved, rather than imperfection, is obviously also false, using the logic found in most elementary school students.
 
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RadiantGrace

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Broken, used alone, is not a helpful term. It's a term used strictly of victims, and does not convey our culpability, our rebellion against our Maker.

Having an incorrect diagnosis means that we get the incorrect treatment, and we remain "broken".

If your problem is that we are "broken", counseling or psychiatric care could potential fix us, but if we are rebels who have been alienated from God, if we have violated the covenant, then we need what only Christ and His cross can provide for us - forgiveness and reconciliation.

The reality is that we are all victims. None of us chose to be born into a world of sin and none of us had a moment outside of brokeness to choose perfection or brokeness. Yet, you intellectually consent to the notion I would deserve to burn in hell forever, for an inherited brokeness, unless God were to arbitrarily decide to pick me for Heaven.

The problem is that accepting humans being as they are, as I am, broken, but never having made a completely objective decision to be broken is complicated. As a result, people are happy to relieve others of the deeper religious questions which arise after puberty when the brain develops abstract thinking... when the world is no longer black and white, but full of gray unresolved problems that become uneasy paradoxes.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The reality is that we are all victims. None of us chose to be born into a world of sin and none of us had a moment outside of brokeness to choose perfection or brokeness. Yet, you intellectually consent to the notion I would deserve to burn in hell forever, for an inherited brokeness, unless God were to arbitrarily decide to pick me for Heaven.

The problem is that accepting humans being as they are, as I am, broken, but never having made a completely objective decision to be broken is complicated. As a result, people are happy to relieve others of the deeper religious questions which arise after puberty when the brain develops abstract thinking... when the world is no longer black and white, but full of gray unresolved problems that become uneasy paradoxes.

If you have no sin, I would love to meet you, because I've heard a lot about sinless folks, and there seems to have ben many spotting of them, but I've never seen actual proof of their existence, kinda like Nessie or Sasquatch.

By your reasoning, Christ deserved to die because it's His fault you, and everyone else, is broken. You've been wronged, and God should be in the dock.
 
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RadiantGrace

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If you have no sin, I would love to meet you

Where did I say I had no sin?

because I've heard a lot about sinless folks, and there seems to have ben many spotting of them, but I've never seen actual proof of their existence, kinda like Nessie or Sasquatch.

By your reasoning, Christ deserved to die

Please, explain.

because it's His fault you, and everyone else, is broken. You've been wronged, and God should be in the dock.

So, from my post, you reasoned that I think I had no sin and that Christ deserved to die?
 
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ubicaritas

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If you have no sin

That's not what we are saying. But certainly, nobody chooses to be a sinner, right?

By your reasoning, Christ deserved to die because it's His fault you, and everyone else, is broken. You've been wronged, and God should be in the dock.

That's actually one way of seeing the Cross. God puts himself on the dock.
 
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bbbbbbb

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If you have no sin, I would love to meet you, because I've heard a lot about sinless folks, and there seems to have ben many spotting of them, but I've never seen actual proof of their existence, kinda like Nessie or Sasquatch.

By your reasoning, Christ deserved to die because it's His fault you, and everyone else, is broken. You've been wronged, and God should be in the dock.

I want to thank you for making this a poll thread. The votes in your poll are surprisingly illuminating as are the various posts. BTW, IMO this is a no-brainer.

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.


4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the Lord is his refuge.


7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yet, you intellectually consent to the notion I would deserve to burn in hell forever, for an inherited brokeness, unless God were to ... decide to pick me for Heaven.

Yup.
 
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RisenInJesus

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Are People Basically Good or Basically Evil?
According to the scriptures people are evil, but not so totally depraved to the point that we don’t recognize the difference between good and evil or lack the ability to at times do good things.

Jesus said..."If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Matthew 7:11
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Where did I say I had no sin?



Please, explain.



So, from my post, you reasoned that I think I had no sin and that Christ deserved to die?

You are a victim, right. You didn't ask to be born into your condition, correct? Therefore, you are the innocent, and God needs to account for His actions. He owes you, if I take our account as is.
 
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sdowney717

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According to the scriptures people are evil, but not so totally depraved to the point that we don’t recognize the difference between good and evil or lack the ability to at times do good things.

Jesus said..."If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" Matthew 7:11

People may do some good things, but their works are evil regardless, and their righteousness attempts filthy rags, filthy rags cannot hide the inner man which is evil, God sees right through that, but people do try to cover up their sins anyway. And if you do not know the Lord, you going to be judged by your works and found wanting by Him.

Jesus says this in John 3, so they are evil and their deeds evil, there are none who does good.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

These though are different, they do the truth, their deeds wrought in God.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
 
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Blade

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Going to stick with what Jesus said.. you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children.. how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask. A.. born into sin?... does GOOD transcend righteousness? All our righteousness is as rages to Him. Jesus on the earth said.. why call me good..there is only one good the Father.

Gods word..is the only words that have life :) We can think say debate.. yet.. if its NOT His word.. HIM.. there is no life in it. May not be evil.. yet HE is not in it. Some will understand.. some will not.
 
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RadiantGrace

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You are a victim, right. You didn't ask to be born into your condition, correct? Therefore, you are the innocent, and God needs to account for His actions. He owes you, if I take our account as is.

I like how you immediately move to one extreme to justify another extreme.

You believe that God creates people, who have no choice but to be sinners and randomly choses to save them and you claim you believe in a just god. There is no justification for a god to create people that have no choice in being flawed and then punishes them for being flawed sinners.

Human beings by their nature of being a common species, living among each other and being effected by the choices of others, were destined to live in a world of sin. By the choice of another person, we can and were living in a world with sin. This is a choice we never made.

So in Calvinism, God can rightly punish all those people. Punish them for being sinners while freely admitting they never chose to be sinners. God is then called merciful for randomly saving people against their will.

In orthodox Christianity, human beings are flawed, but not depraved. God offers grace to each individual who is accountable to the grace received by God and for this reason we can speak of a judgment. The Calvinist judgment is a farce, God just randomly declares people innocent or guilty. In orthodox Christianity, I will be held accountable for all my sins, I don't get to play it off as something outside of myself like the Manicheans did. I don't get to play the devil made me do it card the Gnostics claimed before getting it was adopted by Calvinists.

My defense is only my free cooperation with God through his unlimited (unlimited, not irrestiable and limited) grace.
 
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