Are no wars justified?

[Varangian Christian]

I posted this in Justinian's instead of Basil's so that debate on this issue can be had, if there are differing sides that is.

In my research into Orthodoxy the view I have commonly found expressed is the following:

• War is inherently an evil.
  
• There are no just wars like in the Western Christian understanding.
  
• War must be allowed for as a necessary evil in this fallen world.

This is a complex subject of discussion with many grey areas, so I am wondering if the Church is really entirely black and white on this issue.

My first question would be what does evil mean in the context of war? Of course offensive war purely for conquest and subjugation are evil but I do not see how defensive war can be evil in the same sense.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:7-9

War is not simply an earthly phenomenon but a celestial one as well. Was Michael engaging in sin by warring with the armies of Satan?

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." - Exodus 15:3

Something associated with God, I would think, should not be considered evil for God is not evil.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:" - Psalm 144:1

The prophet king David also acknowledged God as his teacher in war, and throughout his life David is sanctioned and protected by God in war.

There are innumerable other passages from Scripture that could be mentioned and the history of the Church has some examples, a perfect example being Constantine:

"He said, moreover, that he doubted within himself what the import of this apparition could be. And while he continued to ponder and reason on its meaning, night suddenly came on; then in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens, and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens, and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies." - Eusebius on Constantine's vision

So Jesus Himself appeared to Constantine, told him to use the sign of the cross when fighting his enemies, and then aided him throughout his wars. It cannot be denied that Constantine's victory over his enemies through war brought immeasurable good to the world, so how can his wars have been evil?

My own belief on this matter is that war done in defense of the country, the innocent, in opposition to evil or by the will of God is not a sin like unto murder or other damnable sins like sodomy, adultery, etc. Rather it is classified as a "sin" in that it is not perfection and thus not to be desired, but is necessary in this world where evil exists and must be opposed.

Is my understanding in line with that of the Church or am I wrong?

 

[DennisTate]

Well said...........
I would take a serious look at the context of the question by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.


Mark 3:4

And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

I am thinking that the situation faced by the Maccabees was on his mind.

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, 1 Machabees Chapter 2

But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places, [37] Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully. [38] So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places. [42] Then was assembled to them the congregation of the Assideans, the stoutest of Israel, every one that had a good will for the law. [43] And all they that fled from the evils, joined themselves to them, and were a support to them. [44] And they gathered an army, and slew the sinners in their wrath, and the wicked men in their indignation: and the rest fled to the nations for safety. [45] And Mathathias and his friends went round about, and they threw down the altars:

 

[Varangian Christian]

Well said...........
I would take a serious look at the context of the question by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.


Mark 3:4


I am thinking that the situation faced by the Maccabees was on his mind.

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, 1 Machabees Chapter 2

Thank you for your insight! I really should begin reading more of the "Apocrypha".

 

[DennisTate]

Thank you for your insight! I really should begin reading more of the "Apocrypha".

Along with reading near death experience accounts, (especially those with a Life Review) the Apocrypha assisted to significantly shift my understanding of how to attempt to keep the Sabbath within certain sets of circumstances and what the plan of G-d for all of us really was.

I could no longer fit in with my old church once I got into the readings that I found from 1990 - 2000. The Apocrypha is of off the scale value in my opinion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

war is never just, even though it might be necessary in our fallen condition. even when commanded by God, it's because He has to deal with us and how we abuse our freedom.

the war in heaven didn't involve humans killing each other. remember the OT verses are before the Incarnation, so the words of Christ clarify the OT.

 

[Dansiph]

I posted this in Justinian's instead of Basil's so that debate on this issue can be had, if there are differing sides that is.

In my research into Orthodoxy the view I have commonly found expressed is the following:

• War is inherently an evil.
  
• There are no just wars like in the Western Christian understanding.
  
• War must be allowed for as a necessary evil in this fallen world.

This is a complex subject of discussion with many grey areas, so I am wondering if the Church is really entirely black and white on this issue.

My first question would be what does evil mean in the context of war? Of course offensive war purely for conquest and subjugation are evil but I do not see how defensive war can be evil in the same sense.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:7-9

War is not simply an earthly phenomenon but a celestial one as well. Was Michael engaging in sin by warring with the armies of Satan?

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." - Exodus 15:3

Something associated with God, I would think, should not be considered evil for God is not evil.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:" - Psalm 144:1

The prophet king David also acknowledged God as his teacher in war, and throughout his life David is sanctioned and protected by God in war.

There are innumerable other passages from Scripture that could be mentioned and the history of the Church has some examples, a perfect example being Constantine:

"He said, moreover, that he doubted within himself what the import of this apparition could be. And while he continued to ponder and reason on its meaning, night suddenly came on; then in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens, and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens, and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies." - Eusebius on Constantine's vision

So Jesus Himself appeared to Constantine, told him to use the sign of the cross when fighting his enemies, and then aided him throughout his wars. It cannot be denied that Constantine's victory over his enemies through war brought immeasurable good to the world, so how can his wars have been evil?

My own belief on this matter is that war done in defense of the country, the innocent, in opposition to evil or by the will of God is not a sin like unto murder or other damnable sins like sodomy, adultery, etc. Rather it is classified as a "sin" in that it is not perfection and thus not to be desired, but is necessary in this world where evil exists and must be opposed.

Is my understanding in line with that of the Church or am I wrong?

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 King James Version
3 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:


2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;


3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;


4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;


5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;


6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;


7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;


8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

This is just what came to mind straight off the bat.

 

[Dansiph]

I don't know why the text is so large and it won't let me edit, sorry. Now edited.

 

[buzuxi02]

It's true that there is no "just war theory" in Orthodoxy. We know wars will always occur as Jesus said so. And many times its not a black and white issue, both sides can claim they are in the right and the other is the aggressor, and regardless, every government believes its appropriate to bomb and destroy away to protect their interests and so on. Thus theorizing about something that Jesus has already told us we will continue to be suckered into time and time again will never reach a satisfactory conclusion.
Probably the best question to ask is to an 18 year old soldier or his parents whether it is worth it.
Anyhow back to the Orthodox point of view, if an Orthodox nation does get into war we pray for it to be victorious regardless if it is in the right. We can then have a debate over the morality in the aftermath.

 

[Not me]

Was Michael engaging in sin by warring with the armies of Satan?

This is a very thought provoking question. Thank you very much for this. Something I will definitely be chewing on and taking before God.

Bless you my friend,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Just Another User]

I think I'm fine with governments declaring war upon each other because they're kingdoms of darkness. However, I don't think violence should ever be committed by Christians under any circumstance because we're of the kingdom of light.

 

[Not me]

Question;

Which is more righteous?

To allow your neighbor to be killed, or to prevent your neighbor from being killed?

Responding to a evil act with violence, is not sin. For violence in itself is not sin, it is just causing harm to something. That harm can be a good or bad thing. You harm a tree when you use the lumber to build a house. For violence is simply a tool like a hammer, it can be used for good or evil. It all depends on the person using violence whether he is using it for a good purpose or a bad purpose.

(my thinks)

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Dansiph]

I think I'm fine with governments declaring war upon each other because they're kingdoms of darkness. However, I don't think violence should ever be committed by Christians under any circumstance because we're of the kingdom of light.

I agree that we shouldn't commit violence but violence is when innoccent people are hurt. I think that if you are attacked you should defend yourself. It is no longer "violence"

 

[SkyWriting]

I posted this in Justinian's instead of Basil's so that debate on this issue can be had, if there are differing sides that is.

In my research into Orthodoxy the view I have commonly found expressed is the following:

• War is inherently an evil.
  
• There are no just wars like in the Western Christian understanding.
  
• War must be allowed for as a necessary evil in this fallen world.

This is a complex subject of discussion with many grey areas, so I am wondering if the Church is really entirely black and white on this issue.

My first question would be what does evil mean in the context of war? Of course offensive war purely for conquest and subjugation are evil but I do not see how defensive war can be evil in the same sense.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Revelation 12:7-9

War is not simply an earthly phenomenon but a celestial one as well. Was Michael engaging in sin by warring with the armies of Satan?

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." - Exodus 15:3

Something associated with God, I would think, should not be considered evil for God is not evil.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:" - Psalm 144:1

The prophet king David also acknowledged God as his teacher in war, and throughout his life David is sanctioned and protected by God in war.

There are innumerable other passages from Scripture that could be mentioned and the history of the Church has some examples, a perfect example being Constantine:

"He said, moreover, that he doubted within himself what the import of this apparition could be. And while he continued to ponder and reason on its meaning, night suddenly came on; then in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens, and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens, and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies." - Eusebius on Constantine's vision

So Jesus Himself appeared to Constantine, told him to use the sign of the cross when fighting his enemies, and then aided him throughout his wars. It cannot be denied that Constantine's victory over his enemies through war brought immeasurable good to the world, so how can his wars have been evil?

My own belief on this matter is that war done in defense of the country, the innocent, in opposition to evil or by the will of God is not a sin like unto murder or other damnable sins like sodomy, adultery, etc. Rather it is classified as a "sin" in that it is not perfection and thus not to be desired, but is necessary in this world where evil exists and must be opposed.

Is my understanding in line with that of the Church or am I wrong?

The church of my family, Church of the Brethren, is one of the few that stand behind the idea that war has no value under any circumstances and the church lobbies for drafted members to get alternative service.

 

[Just Another User]

I agree that we shouldn't commit violence but violence is when innoccent people are hurt. I think that if you are attacked you should defend yourself. It is no longer "violence"

I completely disagree and I don't believe a Christian should ever defend themselves with an act of violence. You can run, hide or do a back flip over your opponent but you should never intend to hurt another person. Even if it's to help someone else. I'll reserve all violence for God and for those that hate him.

But back onto the question though. I do believe God certainly uses wars for his will but our will is not the Fathers. Let the Kingdoms of Darkness and their citizens fight and kill each other. The children of God should never advocate war. How can we support a war from a evil realm ; not matter how noble; when we're citizens of Jesus' Kingdom?

 

[Dansiph]

I completely disagree and I don't believe a Christian should ever defend themselves with an act of violence. You can run, hide or do a back flip over your opponent but you should never intend to hurt another person. Even if it's to help someone else. I'll reserve all violence for God and for those that hate him.

But back onto the question though. I do believe God certainly uses wars for his will but our will is not the Fathers. Let the Kingdoms of Darkness and their citizens fight and kill each other. The children of God should never advocate war. How can we support a war from a evil realm ; not matter how noble; when we're citizens of Jesus' Kingdom?

We don't have the same definition of voilence. If I can just ask, why do you feel the way you do? Here's some of my experiences:

I've chosen not to defend myself in a situation where the person attacking me had a weapon (some kind of metal rod). I managed to disarm them and then I was told to "give it back" which I did, to the other person who was with him. That person continued hitting me and then walked away. My reason for telling you this is he was hitting my arms and body. If he'd have hit my head I'd have retaliated. I think they were baffled at me not defending myself but I'm not just going to stand there and be killed.

I've also been chased by a gang who had weapons, we ran and everyone still got hit. Luckily we managed to make it to a petrol station where other people assisted.

Most people who are attacked with a knife still get stabbed when they attempt to run away. Try it with a friend. They can be the "attacker" and you the "victim". Try and run away before they stab you.

Someone once tried stealing from me and I kicked them in the stomach, winding them. Are they really hurt? They were and then they went away and I kept my belongings. One time I was even punched square in the nose and walked away.

I can see why turning the other cheek is good but not ALL of the time. I also see the complete lack of logic involved to be black and white against what you call voilence. Hitting someone is not violence. Human's injuries heal. The reason for telling my experiences is I've avoided conflict, not defended myself but if I think I'm in actual danger or someone else is. I will use "violence", I hope. I also hope you will.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for your insight! I really should begin reading more of the "Apocrypha".

By the way - I think you mean the Deuterocanon, and I agree it's good "catching up" for those of us not used to it. But please be wary of truly Apocryphal books (those outright rejected by the Church - not just rejected from the canon - even in small part) until you have a very good handle on what to accept (which takes years, apparently). There's good reason they are rejected and can cause real confusion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As far as the Church's position on war - we can infer a few things.

There are soldier-Saints. However ... a person who has killed another person, even in war or in defense of the innocent, is still prescribed to abstain from the Eucharist for a period of time, because even when "necessary" - the taking of human life is an offense against the image of God in men and a serious sin.

It's not a simple answer. If God's order were being followed, there would be no reason for wars or killing. But because men are sinful, sometimes the "need" arises. Or at least the situation where it can be the more righteous thing to do. But it is still a serious and grievous thing to kill a person. One image of God destroying another image of God. The world is fallen and in deep sin.

 

[Dansiph]

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal;

a time of war, and a time of peace.

These seem to indicate that there is a time for killing and a time for war

 

[ArmyMatt]

could the non-Orthodox please debate each other elsewhere?

 

[Just Another User]

could the non-Orthodox please debate each other elsewhere?

Fair enough