Are myths the basis of Protestantism?

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Saint_George

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Iollain said:
George, we don't believe we have God segregated off in our churches, the Church is whosoever the Lord calls, it is not a denomination.
Almost right. You are thinking of the invisible church. The invisible church is the group of believers of whosoever the Lord calls. However, like I explained in another thread, The invisible church is corrupt.

Jesus is the cornerstone of the church. He had a group of followers, all believing the same thing, the true word of Jesus Christ. They believed ONLY what he set down, and that is why he was the cornerstone. 15000 years later the beliefs change, yet they still claim to be founded on that cornerstone? I don't get it.

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Iollain

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Saint_George said:
Almost right. You are thinking of the invisible church. The invisible church is the group of believers of whosoever the Lord calls. However, like I explained in another thread, The invisible church is corrupt.

Jesus is the cornerstone of the church. He had a group of followers, all believing the same thing, the true word of Jesus Christ. They believed ONLY what he set down, and that is why he was the cornerstone. 1500 years later the beliefs change, yet they still claim to be founded on that cornerstone? I don't get it.

Saint_George

I need Biblical verses for this 'invisible church' and how are you calling the Lord's people corrupt? If the RCC is this Church that Jesus started then something happened to it........might have been man's traditions.
 
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Forest

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Saint_George said:
I don't mean any of this offesnively. But many people haves said what you have just said. But Jesus didn't build the cornerstone of the Protestant church. That was long after his death. Jesus is more of the accepted leader.

Jesus is not just an "accepted leader" to me.

Saint_George said:
What caused Luther to want to break off? There had to be some words going around that gave him the idea to start a reformation. And according to protestants, if that is the word of man (tradition), then they are in no way true, thus leaving the foundation of Protestantism as a myth.

Saint_George

And if the beginning cause was the very unbiblical tradition of trading indulgences for money, then no wonder at all Luther did not want to accept that.
 
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Kepha

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hoser said:
What is the truth to a protestant then? Well, since protestants disagree on so many things, they don't know what the truth really is but yet they all claim they have it. How is that possible? It sounds kind of like that new liberal math where no matter what answer you give it's acceptable as long as the individual with a Bible in hand came to that conclusion for him/her self after asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. Give me a break.
Because it's easier to say the Holy Spirit is guiding 'Me' and you can't prove He isn't, rather than acknowledging something awful has gone wrong. If one says how do you know this?... Their response: "Because i can feel it".

Zero logic. All about feeling. :doh:
 
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Saint_George

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Iollain said:
I need Biblical verses for this 'invisible church' and how are you calling the Lord's people corrupt? If the RCC is this Church that Jesus started then something happened to it........might have been man's traditions.

The Invisible church is the body of believers. So basically the christians make up the invisible church. It is called the invisible church because you can't physically see all these denominations united as 1. As far as me calling it corrupt it is a long explanation, so I will post it from another thread that I wrote then add some comments for better understanding.

Explanation of corrupt Invisible Church:

Phil 2:2 Be of same mind, united heart, thinking one thing
1 Cor. 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you...
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

When Jesus came to the earth he established a foundation for faith; a church. He made one church, a church of his followers, a church of people that heard and believed what he said. He had the apostles, people who kept his words on paper, these words have become the foundation of many "denominations". However these words tell us what to do, how to live, and what to believe. "Be of the same mind, united heart, thinking one thing". Believe the truth as a church, love me the way everyone should, agree on your belief.

When Jesus left the earth he did not leave us a book that we now know and call a "bible", he left us with a church, a community of believers. This was the Catholic Church. The Church is our authority, not the bible. Don't get me wrong, us Catholics love the bible and hold it close to our hearts, but it is not our authority.

"I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you..." This passage is talking about division in the body. He says "I urge that there be no division among you". Among you... "You" must refer to the body of christ which does not include atheistic beliefs. The reason behind this is because we all know that Jesus will seperate his flock, and we know that atheism is in no way christianity. Not everybody on the earth during Jesus's time was a follower so there was already a division. So unless he lied, he is not speaking about non-christian or athiests, rather, christians. Therefore since we are all in the body of christ, he urges that we don't divide and that we all think the same and love him the same way.

Do the Religions we see today, rightly reflect what Jesus told us? We have only divided 30,000 plus times, that number increasing as I type. We had the Catholic Church which 1500 years later, parts of it divided into mass chaos. Those religions aren't "Thinking one thing", As said in Corinthians, "Is christ divided"? The answer is NO.



Saint_George



 
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Kepha

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Forest said:
And if the beginning cause was the very unbiblical tradition of trading indulgences for money, then no wonder at all Luther did not want to accept that.
Can you show me where this is a Catholic Doctrine? You seem to be the victim of where poor Catholic info is being given to you.
 
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Saint_George

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Forest said:
And if the beginning cause was the very unbiblical tradition of trading indulgences for money, then no wonder at all Luther did not want to accept that.

He wasn't man enough to fix one problem, so instead of making another church without that problem, he started a whole new outlook on christianity?

Saint_George
 
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Forest

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Kepha said:
Because it's easier to say the Holy Spirit is guiding 'Me' and you can't prove He isn't, rather than acknowledging something awful has gone wrong. If one says how do you know this?... Their response: "Because i can feel it".

Zero logic. All about feeling. :doh:

I don't have any doubt that many "protestant" Churches are in great error.

However, I don't understand why it is OK to believe anything "because the Church says so." I hope that doesn't come across as offensive, because I hope you can explain that to me.
 
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MikeMcK

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hoser said:
Uh, OK. You give me all this and you know what? I agree with everything! However, I still fail to see that these are defined as "essentials".

Where does the bible say that the issues you bring up are "essentials" or in other words the only things that matter. And where does the bible say that any other issue is not important so we can believe what ever we want. Since you are a believer in "sola scriptura" you MUST be able to point to me verses that support both of my points. If you cannot point to me verses that say "this and that are essential" and this and that are "open to personal interpretation" then your argument has failed.

Do you know what is meant when Christians talk about the "essentials"?
 
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Saint_George

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Could someone answer my questions?

Where in scripture is the Bible alone theory? Is the basis of the leadership of the church once again based on something non-scriptual?

How do Protestants determine which books of the Bible are the Bible?

After reading Luke 1:48, why do you not call the Mother of GOD, Blessed?

Which Church did Jesus Christ found in Matt 16:18? Remember, He said Church, not Churches in that verse.

Why isn't the Gospel of Peter, or the Gospel of Thomas in your Bible? Who had the authority for exclusion of these and other books from Holy Scripture?

Which verse tells you that the revelation of Jesus Christ ended with the death of the last Apostle?

Why do you believe the Catholic Church apostatized in the past when Jesus Christ Himself said in Matt 28:20, "I will be with you ALL DAYS until the end of time." Please explain your response to this question.

Why are you in a Church which cannot show that it is the Church which Jesus Christ founded?

Why do you not honor the Mother of GOD when Luther himself said, "When you have said She is the Mother of GOD, you have said it all?"

Why do you believe in individual interpretation of the Bible when the Bible clearly states that this must NOT be done?
Acts 8:27-39, 2Pet 1:20, 2Pet 3:16-18.


Why do you follow in the footsteps of Saul and persecute the Church which Jesus Christ founded? 1Cor 15:9.

Why do you take almost the entire Bible literally and then say that John chapter 6 is figurative, when it clearly does not say that it is?

Why do you not have the Deuterocanonical books which you call 'apochrypha' in your Bible, when they are clearly referenced in the New Testament? This is taking away from the Word of GOD, which the Bible clearly prohibits in many verses.

Saint_George
 
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Kepha

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Forest said:
I don't have any doubt that many "protestant" Churches are in great error.

However, I don't understand why it is OK to believe anything "because the Church says so." I hope that doesn't come across as offensive, because I hope you can explain that to me.
Look to how the early christians behaved. Besides, using the Bible as your only guide to faith is set up to fail. That is what one should first acknowledge. If there is no visible infallible authority, the truth can never be preached, since it will be taught on fallacies and error and nobody can definitivly say it is being taught wrong. Why should anyone take them serious. They themselves admit to not being infallible.

I doubt being "man enough" had anything to do with it.
His pride pushed him out the Church. He should have stayed within and fought it out. He had nothing to fear in fighing against something even the Church never once taught.
 
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Forest

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Kepha said:
Can you show me where this is a Catholic Doctrine? You seem to be the victim of where poor Catholic info is being given to you.

I don't think I have been a "victim". Here is a part of the page at the following link...

In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

It was clearly abused at the time.
 
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Iollain

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Saint_George said:
The Invisible church is the body of believers. So basically the christians make up the invisible church. It is called the invisible church because you can't physically see all these denominations united as 1. As far as me calling it corrupt it is a long explanation, so I will post it from another thread that I wrote then add some comments for better understanding.

George we are not invisible, if we try to hide our faithfulness to Christ then He will deny us in the end.

I know what your talking about by corrupt, no explanation needed. Your either saved or your not.

Explanation of corrupt Invisible Church:

Phil 2:2 Be of same mind, united heart, thinking one thing
1 Cor. 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you...
1 Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

When Jesus came to the earth he established a foundation for faith; a church. He made one church, a church of his followers, a church of people that heard and believed what he said. He had the apostles, people who kept his words on paper, these words have become the foundation of many "denominations". However these words tell us what to do, how to live, and what to believe. "Be of the same mind, united heart, thinking one thing". Believe the truth as a church, love me the way everyone should, agree on your belief.

When Jesus left the earth he did not leave us a book that we now know and call a "bible", he left us with a church, a community of believers. This was the Catholic Church. The Church is our authority, not the bible. Don't get me wrong, us Catholics love the bible and hold it close to our hearts, but it is not our authority.

"I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you..." This passage is talking about division in the body. He says "I urge that there be no division among you". Among you... "You" must refer to the body of christ which does not include atheistic beliefs. The reason behind this is because we all know that Jesus will seperate his flock, and we know that atheism is in no way christianity. Not everybody on the earth during Jesus's time was a follower so there was already a division. So unless he lied, he is not speaking about non-christian or athiests, rather, christians. Therefore since we are all in the body of christ, he urges that we don't divide and that we all think the same and love him the same way.

Do the Religions we see today, rightly reflect what Jesus told us? We have only divided 30,000 plus times, that number increasing as I type. We had the Catholic Church which 1500 years later, parts of it divided into mass chaos. Those religions aren't "Thinking one thing", As said in Corinthians, "Is christ divided"? The answer is NO.



Saint_George




Just cause you RCC have a big set of rules does not mean your 'the Church' that Jesus started, i'll say it again, Peter would not bow to a statue and pray to Mary.
 
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Forest

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Kepha said:
Look to how the early christians behaved. Besides, using the Bible as your only guide to faith is set up to fail. That is what one should first acknowledge. If there is no visible infallible authority, the truth can never be preached, since it will be taught on fallacies and error and nobody can definitivly say it is being taught wrong. Why should anyone take them serious. They themselves admit to not being infallible.

To say the truth can never be preached is excessive. Since I have heard a "protestant" preacher say that "Jesus dies for our sins". You should be careful in saying the "truth can never be preached." In your generalization you called that an untruth.

Kepha said:
His pride pushed him out the Church. He should have stayed within and fought it out. He had nothing to fear in fighing against something even the Church never once taught.

It would have been nice for unity. Perhaps he feared for his life.
 
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Kepha

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Forest said:
I don't think I have been a "victim". Here is a part of the page at the following link...

In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

It was clearly abused at the time.
I never said it wasn't abused. I admit it was. St. Pius v never said that granting indulgences to those who aid the Church was wrong. He only took it away because it 'Can' get abused as was happening. Again, what Luther was fighing against (the abuse) wasn't officially taught by the Catholic Church. The Priests in question should have been stopped and corrected. But there was never a Doctrine that ever sold indulgences.
 
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Kepha

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Iollain said:
Just cause you RCC have a big set of rules does not mean your 'the Church' that Jesus started, i'll say it again, Peter would not bow to a statue and pray to Mary.
Same old Iollain with the same wild assumptions. But God would permit His chosen people to bow to a golden serpant? :doh:
 
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Forest

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Saint_George said:
Could someone answer my questions?

Where in scripture is the Bible alone theory? Is the basis of the leadership of the church once again based on something non-scriptual?

How do Protestants determine which books of the Bible are the Bible?

After reading Luke 1:48, why do you not call the Mother of GOD, Blessed?

Which Church did Jesus Christ found in Matt 16:18? Remember, He said Church, not Churches in that verse.

Saint_George

I don't have time for them all until later but...

Mary is clearly "Blessed".
 
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Kepha

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Forest said:
To say the truth can never be preached is excessive. Since I have heard a "protestant" preacher say that "Jesus dies for our sins". You should be careful in saying the "truth can never be preached." In your generalization you called that an untruth.
Sorry, i never meant it like that. I admit protestants teach the "Truth" on certain things. What i was saying is why should i believe a Bible alone believer's truth if they admit, they can teach error?



It would have been nice for unity. Perhaps he feared for his life.
So he changed official Doctrine to save his life? :scratch:
 
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