Are myths the basis of Protestantism?

[Iollain]

I think getting on your knees and praying to Mary in front of a statue is a whole lot more dangerous than looking at your Bible to find truth.

 

[MikeMcK]

I think getting on your knees and praying to Mary in front of a statue is a whole lot more dangerous than looking at your Bible to find truth.

Very well said.

 

[cristoiglesia]

I think getting on your knees and praying to Mary in front of a statue is a whole lot more dangerous than looking at your Bible to find truth.

I admit that the veneration of the blessed mother sometimes appears to go too far but asking for someone else to pray for you is an orthodox practice of Christianity. {rotestants ask for others to pray for them as well, is that dangerous or is it just if a Catholic does it.

Blessings to you.

In Christ

 

[MikeMcK]

I admit that the veneration of the blessed mother sometimes appears to go too far but asking for someone else to pray for you is an orthodox practice of Christianity. {rotestants ask for others to pray for them as well, is that dangerous or is it just if a Catholic does it.

Blessings to you.

In Christ

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to pray for you.

The problem comes when you pray to the dead so that they will pray for you.

You say that this is an "orthodox practice of Christianity". If this is true, why isn't it found anywhere in scripture?

 

[Lynn73]

The gross error of Sola Scriptura is evident in the thousands of denominations all believing different errors and holding to their own version of the truth. They continue to go around and around , none coming to the truth. Their ears hear the truth but their hearts have no power to discern the truth. The Protestant experiment has failed miserably, but there is a home in the Church founded by Christ. May the blessings of the Lord be upon you.

In Christ

The fact that many churches or denominations, including yours, may not be in perfect agreement as to the interpetation of some passages in no way negates the fact that the Bible, God's words is our final authority to which all doctrine, teaching, and tradition is to be compared. God has plenty to say in the Bible about the authority of His word. He magnifies it even above His name.

The RC Church argues that Scripture was given to men by the Church and therefore the Church has equal or greater authority to it. However, even among the RC Church’s writings (from the First Vatican Council) you will find the acknowledgment that the Church councils that canonized or determined which books were to be considered the Word of God did nothing but recognize what the Holy Spirit had already made evident. That is, the Church did not “give” Scriptures to men, but simply “recognized” what God, through the Holy Spirit, had already given and was using in the churches. As A. A. Hodge states, when a peasant recognizes a prince and is able to call him by name, it does not give him the right to rule over the kingdom. In like fashion, just because a church council recognized which books were God-breathed and had the traits of a God-inspired book, it does not give it the right to have equal authority with those books.

In summary, while one cannot find a single passage that states that “the written word alone and not tradition also is our sole authority,” what must also be admitted is that repeatedly, again and again, the Old Testament writers, Jesus, and the apostles turn to the Scriptures as their measuring stick and commend the same to any and all that would follow them.

from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-tradition.html

Psalm 138:2 - I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Proverbs 30:5-6 - Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Deuteronomy 4:2 - Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Psalm 12:6-7 - The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.

Isaiah 40:8 - The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

1 Peter 1:23 - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever.

1 Peter 1:25 - BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOREVER. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Psalm 119:89-90 - For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Psalm 119:60 - Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

John 17:17 - Sanctify them through they truth: thy word is truth.

See also:
2 Tim. 3:16-17
1 Thess. 2:13
Psalm 19:7
Rev. 22:18-19
John 12:48
2 Tim. 2:15
Romans 16:17-18
Ezekiel 22:28
2 Peter 3:16-17
Matthew 4:3-4

God has plenty to say in His word, about His word. He also has plenty to say about the traditions and commands of men:

Mt 15:3

- Show Context But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?



Mt 15:6 - Show Context And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mr 7:8 - Show Context
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.



Mr 7:9 - Show Context And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.



Mr 7:13 - Show Context

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



Col 2:8 - Show Context
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.



Mt 15:9 - Show Context But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.




Mr 7:7 - Show Context Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.



Col 2:22 - Show Context Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?



Titus 1:14 - Show Context Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

I think the Scriptures are clear as to what God holds as the highest authority and that is His word. Traditions are secondary and must be accepted or rejected in light of the word of God. When it comes down to a choice as to whether to believe what you tell me or what God says, I will choose God and His word every time. It is totally backwards to examine Scripture in the light of tradition instead of examining tradition (or any teaching) in the light of Scripture when it is clear which one God holds to be the highest and final authority.

Oh, and in anwer to the OP; no, myths aren't the basis of Protestantism. God's word is. That's why the Reformation, to get back to God's word as the final authority and away from the unbiblical myths and teachings of Catholicism which are based, seemingly, more on traditions of men, declarations of men, and "mother church." Plus other things that I don't know if I'm allowed to mention.

 

[Saint_George]

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to pray for you.

The problem comes when you pray to the dead so that they will pray for you.

You say that this is an "orthodox practice of Christianity". If this is true, why isn't it found anywhere in scripture?

Why isn't sola scriptura found anywhere in scripture?

Don't try to demolish our belief claiming that it is not backed up biblicaly when the soul root of your faith is based on a non-biblical belief. You wouldn't have to ask these questions if you new anything about the Catholic faith.

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

Saint_George

 

[MikeMcK]

Why isn't sola scriptura found anywhere in scripture?

You're ignoring the question.

You wouldn't have to ask these questions if you new anything about the Catholic faith.

And you wouldn't have to make these assertions if you knew anything about Christian doctrine.

As for not knowing anything about the Catholic faith, if I don't, then who's fault is that? I spent five years in Catholic schools (St. Stephens, Pennsauken, NJ/St. Joe's, Toms' River, NJ - by the way, a little St. Joes' trivia for you: Ever see "The Amityville Horror"? If you havem then you've seen St. Joe's) and took the same CCD classes every Catholic kid takes.

I also went to Northeast Catholic in Philadelphia for a short time, but I don't usually count that, as it was pretty brief.

 

[Saint_George]

I don't suppose anyone will find a verse for you.

I would like to know why it is ok to accept tradition that clearly contradicts what is written in the bible?

If the bible says that you aren't allowed to have candles or an altar or make the sign of the cross on your forhead with holy water then I might as well be athiest.

The bible is not even the authority of a church. If it is then why did Jesus leave us an established church instead of a bible?

Saint_George

 

[Saint_George]

You're ignoring the question.

There goes the ignorance again. I answered your question but you probably didn't even take time to read the answer. I will put it in large print so you can't "miss it" then go straight to trying to bash me again.

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.


Saint_George

 

[MikeMcK]

The bible is not even the authority of a church. If it is then why did Jesus leave us an established church instead of a bible?

Let's take a couple of minutes to let this little gem sink in:

My knowledge of the bible....

It is the word of our savior Jesus christ. It is not the final authority as seen by the Catholic church.

So, the Catholic church has authority even over the word of Christ?

That it scary, scary stuff.

 

[MikeMcK]

There goes the ignorance again. I answered your question but you probably didn't even take time to read the answer.

Actually, you didn't. You tried to distract us from your lack of a Biblically based answer with an unrelated question about sola scriptura.

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits.

Actually, the event on the Mount of Transfiguration wasn't praying to the dead.

Strike one.

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.

So, if this is true, does that mean that Catholics are to disregard Mary's "messages"?

Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now."

Why? Is the son's mother somehow less dead?

Why does the son have to ask his dead mother to pray to Jesus when Jesus said that we can come straight to Him?

The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

First of all, if we're not talking about "secret information", then why won't the Vatican tell us what the third prophecy of Fatima is?

Second, much like Generalissimo Francisco Franco, the loved one in this example is still dead.

 

[PioMagnus]

In an interview conducted in November 1984, Cardinal Ratzinger (of the Holy Office) confirmed that, with the Pope’s permission, he had read the Secret and that it concerns, in his words, "a radical call to conversion, the absolute gravity of history, the dangers threatening the Faith and the life of a Christian, and therefore the world. And also the importance of the last times." The Cardinal went on to explain that "if it is not published ... it is to avoid confusing religious prophecy with sensationalism. But the things contained in the Third Secret correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and are confirmed by many other Marian apparitions."

from fatima.org

 

[MikeMcK]

In an interview conducted in November 1984, Cardinal Ratzinger (of the Holy Office) confirmed that, with the Pope’s permission, he had read the Secret and that it concerns, in his words, "a radical call to conversion, the absolute gravity of history, the dangers threatening the Faith and the life of a Christian, and therefore the world. And also the importance of the last times." The Cardinal went on to explain that "if it is not published ... it is to avoid confusing religious prophecy with sensationalism. But the things contained in the Third Secret correspond to what has been announced in Scripture and are confirmed by many other Marian apparitions."

from fatima.org

And for how many years were these alledged "prophecies" kept secret?

 

[PioMagnus]

I believe that the third prophecy is still kept secret because of the reason that then Cardinal Ratzinger stated.

First and Second prophecy I believe were released in 1944... but I'm not sure of that.

I agree, these are "alleged" prophecies, and since they are private revelation they have no binding authority on any christian, no, not even a catholic.

 

[Saint_George]

Actually, you didn't. You tried to distract us from your lack of a Biblically based answer with an unrelated question about sola scriptura.

No, I gave you the two paragraphs referencing why we pray to saints. That was your question. Don't give me any more ..... w/e about it. I beg of you to stop being ignorant. It is past the point of tolerance for me and I am having a hard time restraining myself. You don't interpret what people say, rather you twist their words to make the outcome appealing to yourself and no-one else. You ask for an answer of a question and when it is given to you, you deny that the fact that it is an answer, and then try to prove it wrong with objects that don't even apply to the discussion. Before you tell me "no I don't", get someone elses opinion on your behavior.

Saint_George

 

[MikeMcK]

I believe that the third prophecy is still kept secret because of the reason that then Cardinal Ratzinger stated.

So then, in spite of Saint George's assertion that the dead are not to be contacted for secret messages, these messages have been kept secret, at least in part.

 

[MikeMcK]

No, I gave you the two paragraphs referencing why we pray to saints. That was your question.

Please go back a read your own post, #86.

In it, I asked you,

YOu say that this is an "orthodox practice of Christianity". If this is true, why isn't it found anywhere in scripture?

To which you replied,

Why isn't sola scriptura found anywhere in scripture?

So, clearly, as can be seen in your own post, #86, you did not answer the question but, instead, did attempt to distract from your lack of ability to answer the question by asking another, completely unrelated question.

You don't interpret what people say, rather you twist their words to make the outcome appealing to yourself and no-one else.

Really? Can you please show me where I have twisted anyone's words?

You ask for an answer of a question and when it is given to you, you deny that the fact that it is an answer, and then try to prove it wrong with objects that don't even apply to the discussion.

Actually, I just demonstrated that you did not answer.

 

[Joykins]

Point to discuss:

The Rapture is just as supported (or not) in scripture as is the teaching of Purgatory.

Talk amongst yourselves...I personally think they're about the same.

It's harder to identify tradition if you believe in it but think you don't

I also think the Catholics/Orthodox have a strong poitn about one thing--the early Church (whose obvious direct descendants are today's Catholic and Orthodox churches) decided what should go into the Bible. They decided this based (I believe) on how orthodox and authentic each written work was. This implies an extra-Biblical standard for determining what is scripture? That's why I have more confidence in Catholic and Orthodox teachings that seem only marginally supported by the Bible but precede the formation of the canon.

Joy

 

[CaDan]

Why does the son have to ask his dead mother to pray to Jesus when Jesus said that we can come straight to Him?

So I'm kind of wondering here . . . .

Is Mary dead? If that is the case, we have a little problem with this whole Christianity thing. 'Cause I thought we had a hope of life in Christ.

 

[MikeMcK]

So I'm kind of wondering here . . . .

Is Mary dead?

Yes, she's dead.

'Cause I thought we had a hope of life in Christ.

We do. But because we have life after this life doesn't mean that this life doesn't end.