Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

BewareTheLamb

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The Jews are no longer God's chosen people (Mat 21:43). Christians are now God's chosen people, heirs to the original promise given to Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29)

However, God has not completely removed the promise from physical Israel and the Jews can once again be God's chosen people if they repent from their rebellion against Him (Hos 2, Eze 36, Zec 12-14).
A problem arises if Jews (Israel) is not chosen anymore. The problem is the Covenants they become invalid. If they are invalid then Scripture becomes invalid.
I think one has to identify what chosen means to the Jew and what chosen means to the Church. Being God's chosen as a Jew does not guarantee salvation under the Law but chosen as keepers of the oracles of God and supposed light to the world.
Chosen concerning the Church is salvation along with everything the comes with the finished work Christ Jesus accomplished on the cross
 
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BewareTheLamb

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I disagree. Those keeping the covenant of circumcision (Jews) because of their faith are still Gods people. That does not mean they will not suffer the wrath of the Sinai covenant.
Circumcision is a sign of the covenant, not the covenant itself. The covenant is unconditional
 
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BewareTheLamb

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The covenant of Abraham had two parts, and has been fulfilled.

1) the land grant -- unconditional promise, which Scripture states was fulfilled under Solomon (1 Kings 4:21, 24-25);

2) to be Abraham's God and the God of his descendants -- conditional promise, conditioned on total consecration, symbolized by covenant of circumcision (putting off the flesh, Colossians 2:11). This covenant is broken in their rejection of Jesus Christ and no longer in force.

There is no covenant remaining with Abraham.
And, therefore, there is a believing remnant in whom the irrevocable gifts and call are being fulfilled (Romans 11:2-5), which remnant is in the church, the body of Christ.

God has no people outside the body of Christ.
God sees Israel and the church as one... Not two separate identities.

1) the land grant -- unconditional promise, which Scripture states was fulfilled under Solomon (1 Kings 4:21, 24-25);

I don't think you are correct in the above statement concerning the Land Covenant. It has not yet been fulfilled as per the following,
(Gen 15:18)
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 
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ralliann

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Circumcision is a sign of the covenant, not the covenant itself. The covenant is unconditional
Some sincere questions to expose where we may read scripture differently.
What do you mean by unconditional? I am seeing in Hebrews that it is "the swearing of an Oath which makes a covenant immutable". Apart from which God can change his mind (repent).
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and "will not repent", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. A king/priest. Sinai did not establish this.
Two inheritances that are distinct from one another in the Sinai covenant.
Two portions of the promise made to Abraham which the firstborn has two portions among his brothers.
1.The land, an inheritance to Israel
2. The priesthood an inheritance to Levi. You
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

Circumcision is a sign of the the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17,
I think the difference here is the kings given in Genesis 17 are equally priests, and those kings allowed by Moses are not.
To which the immutabilty is by an Oath sworn by God, concerning the king/priest to David.

De 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Where as the priesthood was only to the tribe of Levi.
How do you see all this?
 
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BewareTheLamb

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Some sincere questions to expose where we may read scripture differently.
What do you mean by unconditional? I am seeing in Hebrews that it is "the swearing of an Oath which makes a covenant immutable". Apart from which God can change his mind (repent).
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and "will not repent", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. A king/priest. Sinai did not establish this.
Two inheritances that are distinct from one another in the Sinai covenant.
Two portions of the promise made to Abraham which the firstborn has two portions among his brothers.
1.The land, an inheritance to Israel
2. The priesthood an inheritance to Levi. You
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

Circumcision is a sign of the the covenant made with Abraham in Genesis 17,
I think the difference here is the kings given in Genesis 17 are equally priests, and those kings allowed by Moses are not.
To which the immutabilty is by an Oath sworn by God, concerning the king/priest to David.

De 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Where as the priesthood was only to the tribe of Levi.
How do you see all this?

It seems to me God uses covenant language in the following covenants
Noahic unconditional, Abrahamic (circumcision), Mosaic conditional, Covenant of peace with Phineas Num 24:11-13, Davidic - unconditional.

God is the initiator and finisher of the Covenants, other than the Mosaic there is not a requirement for anyone to do anything other than God for the covenants to be up held.


I'll also add the New Covenant replaces Mosaic
  • Ps 110: is not covenant
Where do you see kings as priests?

If you would like an excellent discussion and argument regarding the covenants, I recommend The Words of the Covenant, by Paul Henebury, recently published.
 
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ralliann

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It seems to me God uses covenant language in the following covenants
Noahic unconditional, Abrahamic (circumcision), Mosaic conditional, Covenant of peace with Phineas Num 24:11-13, Davidic - unconditional.
I still am not certain what you mean by unconditional?
I am looking at Genesis through the book of Hebrews and the principals I think I see there. I see a covenant being "immutable" based upon an oath. A covenant becomes sure upon an oath. The oath spoken of occurs in Genesis 22. Abraham is said to have "obtained" it after patient endurance.
Ge 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Ge 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
By faith Abraham did this like all that he did.
God is the initiator and finisher of the Covenants, other than the Mosaic there is not a requirement for anyone to do anything other than God for the covenants to be up held.
Again, I am not sure how this language fits with Hebrews. Initiator, yes. Finisher, yes As Hebrews says promises spoken and an oath to make it sure. But it is kinda slippery language concerning our doing anything for Gods covenant to be upheld. Well scripture says after Abraham patiently endured, he obtained. Faith is how Abraham endured. He was obedient to the faith, And walked by faith.
I'll also add the New Covenant replaces Mosaic
  • Ps 110: is not covenant
Where do you see kings as priests?
Melchizedek, for one, And Christ himself. Melchizedek means King of righteousness, and king of peace.
Plainly spoken of here
Said to Abraham....
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Said of Sarah.....
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
If you would like an excellent discussion and argument regarding the covenants, I recommend The Words of the Covenant, by Paul Henebury, recently published.
Does he speak of the contextual principals of Hebrews? Or even Galtians? Galatians has Hagar and Sarah an allegory for the two.
Princes vs kings
Ge 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
 
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Clare73

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I don't think you are correct in the above statement concerning the Land Covenant. It has not yet been fulfilled as per the following,
(Gen 15:18)
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
And what does your Bible state in 1 Kings 4:21?
 
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BewareTheLamb

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River nahar never translated Euphrates. perâth however is and is not in verse you address.
see below
Maybe you might want to get a better bible?

21 So Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the River (nâhâr) to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The New King James Version. (1982). (1 Ki 4:21). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Ki 4:21). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from ethe river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., 1 Ki 4:21). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

nâhâr
naw-hawr'
Total KJV Occurrences: 119
• away, 1
Isa 19:6

• flood, 8
Josh 24:2; Josh 24:3; Josh 24:14; Josh 24:15; Job 14:11; Job 22:16; Ps 66:6; Isa 59:19

• floods, 10
Job 20:17; Job 28:11; Ps 24:2; Ps 93:3(3); Ps 98:8; Song 8:7; Ezek 31:15; Jonah 2:3

• river, 68
Gen 2:10; Gen 2:13; Gen 2:14(2); Gen 15:18(3); Gen 31:21; Gen 36:37; Exod 23:31; Num 22:5; Num 24:6; Deut 1:7(2); Deut 11:24(2); Josh 1:4(2); 2Sam 8:3; 2Sam 10:16; 1Kgs 4:21; 1Kgs 4:24(2); 1Kgs 14:15; 2Kgs 17:6; 2Kgs 18:11; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 1:48; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 5:26; 1Chr 18:3; 1Chr 19:16; 2Chr 9:26; Ezra 8:15; Ezra 8:21; Ezra 8:31; Ezra 8:36; Neh 2:7; Neh 2:9; Neh 3:7; Job 40:23; Ps 46:4; Ps 72:8; Ps 80:11; Ps 105:41; Isa 7:20; Isa 8:7; Isa 11:15; Isa 19:5; Isa 27:12; Isa 48:18; Isa 66:12; Jer 2:18; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Ezek 1:1; Ezek 1:3; Ezek 3:15; Ezek 3:23; Ezek 10:15; Ezek 10:20; Ezek 10:22; Ezek 43:3; Dan 10:4; Mic 7:12; Zech 9:10

• rivers, 30
2Kgs 5:12; Ps 74:15; Ps 78:16; Ps 89:25; Ps 107:33; Ps 137:1; Isa 18:1; Isa 18:2; Isa 18:7; Isa 33:21; Isa 41:18; Isa 42:15; Isa 43:2; Isa 43:19; Isa 43:20; Isa 44:27; Isa 47:2; Isa 50:2; Jer 46:7; Jer 46:8; Ezek 31:4; Ezek 32:2(2); Ezek 32:14; Nah 1:4; Nah 2:6; Hab 3:8(2); Hab 3:9; Zeph 3:10

• streams, 2
Exod 7:19; Exod 8:5

פּרת
perâth
per-awth'
Total KJV Occurrences: 19
• Euphrates, 19
Gen 2:14; Gen 15:18; Deut 1:7; Deut 11:24; Josh 1:4; 2Sam 8:3; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 18:3; 2Chr 35:20; Jer 13:4; Jer 13:5; Jer 13:6; Jer 13:7; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Jer 51:63
 
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BewareTheLamb

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I still am not certain what you mean by unconditional?
The covenants of God in the Bible are solemn vows made by God to perform something on behalf of men. The covenant at Sinai was expressly conditional because it was bi-lateral: both God and Israel were bound to perform their respective oaths; which Israel failed to do and broke the covenant.
But the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Phinehas, and David, as well as the New covenant in Christ, bind God alone, and are unconditional. Any conditions within them can only defer fulfillment until the conditions are met, but they cannot call off the eventual fulfillment of God’s oath, especially as the fulfillment is part of the larger goal of the whole Creation Project.
A covenant is entered into by two or more parties in order for there to be clear understanding and agreement around the terms (or words) within the covenant. The oaths taken bind the ones swearing them to perform the obligations of the covenant which they have “cut.”

Henebury, Paul Martin. The Words of the Covenant - A Biblical Theology: Volume 1 - Old Testament Expectation (p. 94). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

Henebury, Paul Martin. The Words of the Covenant - A Biblical Theology: Volume 1 - Old Testament Expectation (p. 94). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.
 
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BewareTheLamb

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ralliann

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The covenants of God in the Bible are solemn vows made by God to perform something on behalf of men.
According to the teaching of Hebrews:
The oath was not sworn until Genesis 22.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {shore: Heb. lip }
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
The above is "unconditional", to Abraham, and his seed mentioned in the oath.
See Genesis here ( which Paul speaks of the accounts in Genesis as "Hearing the law" in Galatians . And speaks of "The law of faith" in Romans.
Conditional language...
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere }
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 ¶ As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
And here
Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
The covenant at Sinai was expressly conditional because it was bi-lateral: both God and Israel were bound to perform their respective oaths; which Israel failed to do and broke the covenant.
But the covenants with Noah, Abraham, Phinehas, and David, as well as the New covenant in Christ, bind God alone, and are unconditional. Any conditions within them can only defer fulfillment until the conditions are met, but they cannot call off the eventual fulfillment of God’s oath, especially as the fulfillment is part of the larger goal of the whole Creation Project.
A covenant is entered into by two or more parties in order for there to be clear understanding and agreement around the terms (or words) within the covenant. The oaths taken bind the ones swearing them to perform the obligations of the covenant which they have “cut.”

Henebury, Paul Martin. The Words of the Covenant - A Biblical Theology: Volume 1 - Old Testament Expectation (p. 94). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

Henebury, Paul Martin. The Words of the Covenant - A Biblical Theology: Volume 1 - Old Testament Expectation (p. 94). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

Faith has always been a condition. I think you are not recognizing two covenants made with Abraham. One speaking concerning the fourth generation. And Isaac Jacob, and the patriarchs. These all died not inheriting the land. Their hope was in an inheritance in their resurrection from the dead, hence Abraham's faith being made complete in testing him through Isaac.
 
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ralliann

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BewareTheLamb

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The oath was not sworn until Genesis 22.
an oath is not a covenant, but covenants contain oaths.
what do you do with this verse which is prior to Gen 22 and the other verses you quoted?
(Gen 15:18)
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

You see The LORD is the initiator and sustainer of the covenant, Abram did not have a condition to meet, unconditional.

I think you are not recognizing two covenants made with Abraham
As for two covenants with Abraham, I don't see that but as an expansion of the first mention of the covenant in Genesis 15. Which takes us back to the Pronouncement God made in Genesis 3:15 leading us to the eventuality of the Seed portion being fulfilled in Christ Jesus' first advent
 
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Clare73

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I don't think you are correct in the above statement concerning
the Land Covenant. It has not yet been fulfilled as per the following,
(Gen 15:18)
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
And what does your Bible state in 1 Kings 4:21?
Crickets. . .
 
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BewareTheLamb

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Crickets. . .
River nahar never translated Euphrates. perâth however is and is not in verse you address.
see below
Maybe you might want to get a better bible?

21 So Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the River (nâhâr) to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The New King James Version. (1982). (1 Ki 4:21). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Ki 4:21). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from ethe river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., 1 Ki 4:21). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

nâhâr
naw-hawr'
Total KJV Occurrences: 119
• away, 1
Isa 19:6

• flood, 8
Josh 24:2; Josh 24:3; Josh 24:14; Josh 24:15; Job 14:11; Job 22:16; Ps 66:6; Isa 59:19

• floods, 10
Job 20:17; Job 28:11; Ps 24:2; Ps 93:3(3); Ps 98:8; Song 8:7; Ezek 31:15; Jonah 2:3

• river, 68
Gen 2:10; Gen 2:13; Gen 2:14(2); Gen 15:18(3); Gen 31:21; Gen 36:37; Exod 23:31; Num 22:5; Num 24:6; Deut 1:7(2); Deut 11:24(2); Josh 1:4(2); 2Sam 8:3; 2Sam 10:16; 1Kgs 4:21; 1Kgs 4:24(2); 1Kgs 14:15; 2Kgs 17:6; 2Kgs 18:11; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 1:48; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 5:26; 1Chr 18:3; 1Chr 19:16; 2Chr 9:26; Ezra 8:15; Ezra 8:21; Ezra 8:31; Ezra 8:36; Neh 2:7; Neh 2:9; Neh 3:7; Job 40:23; Ps 46:4; Ps 72:8; Ps 80:11; Ps 105:41; Isa 7:20; Isa 8:7; Isa 11:15; Isa 19:5; Isa 27:12; Isa 48:18; Isa 66:12; Jer 2:18; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Ezek 1:1; Ezek 1:3; Ezek 3:15; Ezek 3:23; Ezek 10:15; Ezek 10:20; Ezek 10:22; Ezek 43:3; Dan 10:4; Mic 7:12; Zech 9:10

• rivers, 30
2Kgs 5:12; Ps 74:15; Ps 78:16; Ps 89:25; Ps 107:33; Ps 137:1; Isa 18:1; Isa 18:2; Isa 18:7; Isa 33:21; Isa 41:18; Isa 42:15; Isa 43:2; Isa 43:19; Isa 43:20; Isa 44:27; Isa 47:2; Isa 50:2; Jer 46:7; Jer 46:8; Ezek 31:4; Ezek 32:2(2); Ezek 32:14; Nah 1:4; Nah 2:6; Hab 3:8(2); Hab 3:9; Zeph 3:10

• streams, 2
Exod 7:19; Exod 8:5

פּרת
perâth
per-awth'
Total KJV Occurrences: 19
• Euphrates, 19
Gen 2:14; Gen 15:18; Deut 1:7; Deut 11:24; Josh 1:4; 2Sam 8:3; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 18:3; 2Chr 35:20; Jer 13:4; Jer 13:5; Jer 13:6; Jer 13:7; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Jer 51:63
 
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Clare73

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River nahar never translated Euphrates.
Nahar was understood to mean Euphrates. See the NAS*, NIV*, Amplified*, etc.

". . .from the river of Egypt unto the great river (nahar), the river Euphrates." (Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 1:7, 11:24; Joshua 1:4); 2 Samuel 8:3, 10:16*; 1 Kings 4:21*, 24*, 14:15*;
2 Kings 23:29*; 1 Chronicles 1:48*, etc.

Therefore, my demonstration of the boundaries of the land promise of Genesis 15:18 being fulfilled
in
1 Kings 4:21, 24-25 stands.
perâth however is and is not in verse you address.
see below
Maybe you might want to get a better bible?
Are you sure about that?
The NIV is no late comer to scholarship, and it understands nahar in 1 Kings 4:21, 24-25 to refer to the Euphrates.
Nahar is used in the Pentateuch of extra-Egyptian waterways; e.g., the Euphrates

21 So Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the River (nâhâr) to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.
And nahar is Euphrates.
The New King James Version. (1982). (1 Ki 4:21). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Ki 4:21). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., 1 Ki 4:21). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

nâhâr
naw-hawr'
Total KJV Occurrences: 119
• away, 1
Isa 19:6

• flood, 8
Josh 24:2; Josh 24:3; Josh 24:14; Josh 24:15; Job 14:11; Job 22:16; Ps 66:6; Isa 59:19

• floods, 10
Job 20:17; Job 28:11; Ps 24:2; Ps 93:3(3); Ps 98:8; Song 8:7; Ezek 31:15; Jonah 2:3

• river, 68
Gen 2:10; Gen 2:13; Gen 2:14(2); Gen 15:18(3); Gen 31:21; Gen 36:37; Exod 23:31; Num 22:5; Num 24:6; Deut 1:7(2); Deut 11:24(2); Josh 1:4(2); 2Sam 8:3; 2Sam 10:16; 1Kgs 4:21; 1Kgs 4:24(2); 1Kgs 14:15; 2Kgs 17:6; 2Kgs 18:11; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 1:48; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 5:26; 1Chr 18:3; 1Chr 19:16; 2Chr 9:26; Ezra 8:15; Ezra 8:21; Ezra 8:31; Ezra 8:36; Neh 2:7; Neh 2:9; Neh 3:7; Job 40:23; Ps 46:4; Ps 72:8; Ps 80:11; Ps 105:41; Isa 7:20; Isa 8:7; Isa 11:15; Isa 19:5; Isa 27:12; Isa 48:18; Isa 66:12; Jer 2:18; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Ezek 1:1; Ezek 1:3; Ezek 3:15; Ezek 3:23; Ezek 10:15; Ezek 10:20; Ezek 10:22; Ezek 43:3; Dan 10:4; Mic 7:12; Zech 9:10

• rivers, 30
2Kgs 5:12; Ps 74:15; Ps 78:16; Ps 89:25; Ps 107:33; Ps 137:1; Isa 18:1; Isa 18:2; Isa 18:7; Isa 33:21; Isa 41:18; Isa 42:15; Isa 43:2; Isa 43:19; Isa 43:20; Isa 44:27; Isa 47:2; Isa 50:2; Jer 46:7; Jer 46:8; Ezek 31:4; Ezek 32:2(2); Ezek 32:14; Nah 1:4; Nah 2:6; Hab 3:8(2); Hab 3:9; Zeph 3:10

• streams, 2
Exod 7:19; Exod 8:5
פּרת
perâth, per-awth'
Total KJV Occurrences: 19
• Euphrates, 19

Gen 2:14; Gen 15:18; Deut 1:7; Deut 11:24; Josh 1:4; 2Sam 8:3; 2Kgs 23:29; 2Kgs 24:7; 1Chr 5:9; 1Chr 18:3; 2Chr 35:20; Jer 13:4; Jer 13:5; Jer 13:6; Jer 13:7; Jer 46:2; Jer 46:6; Jer 46:10; Jer 51:63
The NIV does not understand perath in Jeremiah 13:4-7 in the above to be the Euphrates,
while it does understand nahar to refer to the Euphrates, top of this post.

And as previously stated, the NIV is no late comer to scholarship.
 
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ralliann

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Scripture teaches that Genesis 15 gives no inheritance to the patriarchs in that covenant. It gives them heirs, but no inheritance.
Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
The above verse acknowledges that despite this truth, God promised to give it to him. Just like God told Abraham, in Genesis 17 he had made him a father of many Nations. The new covenant teaching on this way of speaking, concerns what faith is. The substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen.
* He calls those things which are not, as though they are!!!!! Hope that is seen is no more hope, otherwise why would he yet hope for what he has?..
Romans4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.



And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Can you acknowledge this before we continue?
 
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BewareTheLamb

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Therefore, my demonstration of the boundaries of the land promise of Genesis 15:18 being fulfilled
in
1 Kings 4:21, 24-25 stands.
Your position does not stand other than on your own view, you may or may not want to look at the Hebrew use of Nahar. The English translations you mention are highly speculative and it seems to me that the translation is set on a particular theology.

IN the Greek OT same verse, Euphrates not found, it is translated River -
(1Ki 4:21) AndG2532 SolomonG* wasG3739 rulerG758 inG1722 allG3956 theG3588 kingdomsG932 fromG575 the riverG4215 of the landG1093 of the PhilistinesG* andG2532 untoG2193 the borderG3725 of Egypt.G* AndG2532 they wereG1510.7.6 bringingG4374 gifts,G1435 andG2532 they servedG1398 G3588 SolomonG* allG3956 theG3588 daysG2250 G3588 of his life.G2222 G1473

G4215 - ποταμός
potamós; gen. potamoú, masc. noun from potázō (n.f.), to flow, which is from pótos (G4224), a drinking match. A river, stream (Mar_1:5; Act_16:13; Rev_8:10; Rev_9:14; Rev_16:4, Rev_16:12; Rev_22:1-2; Sept.: Gen_2:10; Gen_15:18; Gen_41:1; Exo_1:22). Homer often uses potamós for the ocean. Spoken of a stream as swollen, overflowing, meaning a torrent, flood (Mat_7:25, Mat_7:27; Luk_6:48-49; 2Co_11:26; Rev_12:15-16 [cf. Sept.: Isa_59:19]). Used allegorically (Joh_7:38).
Deriv.: potamophórētos (G4216), river- borne.

There is in the Hebrew a proper word for Euphrates. (Same happens in the Greek)
ְפַּרת
peraṯ: A proper noun designating Euphrates.
I. The name refers to the Euphrates River, a major river ca. 1,800 miles long. The Hebrew name comes from the Akkadian, purattu. It and the Tigris encompass the area of Mesopotamia ("between the rivers"). It has shifted its riverbed several times through the millennia. It begins in modern eastern Turkey and flows through Syria and modern Iraq to the Persian Gulf. It and the Tigris meet shortly before emptying into the gulf. It has seen the rise and fall of villages, cities (e.g. Babylon, Carchemish), and great empires (Assyria, Mitanni, Babylon, Persia, etc.) over the years. It was one of the rivers in the Garden of Eden (Gen_2:14). It was the northernmost boundary of the land God promised to Abraham (Gen_15:8; Deu_1:7). It is sometimes called the "great river" or "the River" (Gen_31:21).
II. It seems to be the name of a city or geographical area (Perath; Jer_13:4-7, NIV). It could possibly refer to the Euphrates River (see A).
 
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BewareTheLamb

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And as previously stated, the NIV is no late comer to scholarship.
There is much that can be said about NIV Scholarship but this is not the place. You may want to look into the translation debate more in-depth at another time.
 
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Sunshinee777

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Spiritual jews are the God’s chosen ones. The law is written in their hearts (they operate with the love of God, agape love) and their hearts are circumcised (when you born again in Jesus) you literally have new heart. You are born of God. You are spiritual jew.
 
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