Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

[ralliann]

They reject Moses to this day, even as they honor him with their lips.

The real twist of Scripture and the mystery of iniquity is when professed believers, who agree that the law of God must be fulfilled, begin to change and alter it by their own traditions, so that those traditions are made equal to the law of Scripture.

Therefore, 'rabbinical Jews' who still read Scripture through a vail of Moses, are not even reading Moses, but rather are reading their own traditions about Moses.

I.e. they give lip service to Moses, who would rise up to condemn them, as Jesus did, for their traditions that corrupt the Word of God, and so corrupt the law of God.

The same thing is being done in Christianity, where 'sacred traditions' are treated equal to the gospels and doctrine of the apostles.

They actually try to justify it by referring to the 'strong sacred traditions' of the Jews of old.

The same traditions of course being what they rejected Jesus for.

Yes, I agree that they did. The difference between me and you (I think) is, I wonder if they know (willfully) it today? I also don't think that is ours to judge those outside the Church ( Therefore I wonder about judgemnt of "Messianics"). We just preach the gospel. It is an offense to them.

 

[Clare73]

It was how it worked at Gods house.

According to you. . .not according to the texts.

 

[ralliann]

According to you. . .not according to the texts.

I gave you the text. I appears you don't think Moses spoke to the people from God himself. I say Moses did speak to them what God commanded. Hence no difference between what God said and what Moses said.

 

[Clare73]

I gave you the text. I appears you don't think Moses spoke to the people from God himself. I say Moses did speak to them what God commanded. Hence no difference between what God said and what Moses said.

Agreed. . .they said the same thing.

 

[ralliann]

Agreed. . .they said the same thing.

Wow, hooray. Obedience to Moses as Gods mouthpiece was the same as obedience to God. Because Moses did not speak nor do of himself. Just like Jesus as a prophet like Moses.

 

[Clare73]

Wow, hooray. Obedience to Moses as Gods mouthpiece was the same as obedience to God. Because Moses did not speak nor do of himself. Just like Jesus as a prophet like Moses.

In reality, it was actual obedience to God only, the author of the command and only authority to require obedience, rather than simply an obedience to God which paralleled obedience to the messenger.

"Moses" is just shorthand for "law of God," neither obedience nor the rejection of disobedience having anything to do with Moses personally at all.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Yes, I agree that they did. The difference between me and you (I think) is, I wonder if they know (willfully) it today? I also don't think that is ours to judge those outside the Church ( Therefore I wonder about judgemnt of "Messianics"). We just preach the gospel. It is an offense to them.

By the prophetic parable of Mark 12:7, they knew what they were doing in killing the beloved Son, and Nicodemus admitted they knew Him to be at least a teacher come from God.

And so, we can at least say that God, knowing our hearts, knows that we know, even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves. The mystery of iniquity in the man of sin.

I agree about not spending time judging them without, because it is a waste of time, for the whole world lies in wickedness. And so, for purposes of interpretation of prophecy, we can dispute certain things in Scripture, but I can avoid putting judgment into the hearts of men.

In the end, unbelief is unbelief.

Thanks.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Wow, hooray. Obedience to Moses as Gods mouthpiece was the same as obedience to God. Because Moses did not speak nor do of himself. Just like Jesus as a prophet like Moses.

Congrats. Your point is taken.

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And so, the results are the same, and our part is to ensure by Scripture, that them with rule of ministry over us, are actually watching for our souls with Scripture, rather than dominating our faith with personal rule of their own things:

Trust, but verify. Then obey.

 

[ralliann]

Actually, it was actual obedience to God, the author of the command, and not simply an obedience which paralleled obedience to the messenger.

Gnats

"Moses" is just shorthand for "law of God," neither obedience nor the rejection of disobedienc having anything to do with Mses personally at all.

looking for Gnats. You are the only one bringing this into the conversation.

 

[ralliann]

By the prophetic parable of Mark 12:7, they knew what they were doing in killing the beloved Son, and Nicodemus admitted they knew Him to be at least a teacher come from God.

And so, we can at least say that God, knowing our hearts, knows that we know, even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves. The mystery of iniquity in the man of sin.

I agree about not spending time judging them without, because it is a waste of time, for the whole world lies in wickedness. And so, for purposes of interpretation of prophecy, we can dispute certain things in Scripture, but I can avoid putting judgment into the hearts of men.

In the end, unbelief is unbelief.

Thanks.

By the prophetic parable of Mark 12:7, they knew what they were doing in killing the beloved Son, and Nicodemus admitted they knew Him to be at least a teacher come from God.

And so, we can at least say that God, knowing our hearts, knows that we know, even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves. The mystery of iniquity in the man of sin.

I agree about not spending time judging them without, because it is a waste of time, for the whole world lies in wickedness. And so, for purposes of interpretation of prophecy, we can dispute certain things in Scripture, but I can avoid putting judgment into the hearts of men.

In the end, unbelief is unbelief.

Thanks.

I think Messianic Judaism however is another matter.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

 

[Clare73]

Gnats
looking for Gnats. You are the only one bringing this into the conversation.

Actually, it is you, in post #294, who introduced it.
I'm simply addresssing it.

The resolution seems to be that "Moses" is shorthand for "law of God," neither obedience to, nor rejection in disobedience to, having anything to do with Moses personally at all.

 

[ralliann]

Actually, it is you, in post #294, who introduced it.
I'm simply addresssing it.

The resolution seems to be that "Moses" is shorthand for "law of God," neither obedience to, nor rejection in disobedience to, having anything to do with Moses personally at all.

I said Nothing about Moses "personally", You applied that meaning. And continued through how many posts now? And now you want to strain a gnat again with this...Petty, petty Clare.

 

[U.S. Grant]

I think Messianic Judaism however is another matter.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

If you mean 'Messianic Judaism' being the Jews that rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and still look for another, then that was condemned at the cross. Scripture now calls it the Jews religion (Gal 1:13-14), who abide in unbelief (Rom 11:23), and are the children of their fathers who had Jesus crucified: i.e. 'Messianic Judaism' is just as false and condemned by the risen God of Israel as is Mahdi Islam.

If you mean 'Messianic Judaism' being Christians grafted in again from Israel after the flesh, who still like to hold to old cultural traditions of the Jews, then they are not outside, but inside the body of Christ.

There are no unbelieving people outside the body of Christ that have any honor after the flesh, or respect of religion with God.

 

[ralliann]

If you mean 'Messianic Judaism' being the Jews that rejected Jesus as the Messiah, and still look for another, then that was condemned at the cross. Scripture now calls it the Jews religion (Gal 1:13-14), who abide in unbelief (Rom 11:23), and are the children of their fathers who had Jesus crucified: i.e. 'Messianic Judaism' is just as false and condemned by the risen God of Israel as is Mahdi Islam.

This is Rabbinic Judaism IMO.

There are no unbelieving people outside the body of Christ that have any honor after the flesh, or respect of religion with God.

I agree.

If you mean 'Messianic Judaism' being Christians grafted in again from Israel after the flesh, who still like to hold to old cultural traditions of the Jews, then they are not outside, but inside the body of Christ.

I disagree......
Just like the believing Pharisees
Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Elsewhere spoken of here by Paul.

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. {privately: or, severally }
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

These verses IMO speak of those that are among us , which attempt to bring in damnable heresies (sects, division into parties). These are those which were made manifest at the council of Jerusalem. But they enter in privily, unawares (by stealth) and attempt to pervert the Gospel.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

 

[TedT]

Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

No, GOD's chosen people are now called the Church.

 

[Clare73]

I said Nothing about Moses "personally", You applied that meaning. And continued through how many posts now? And now you want to strain a gnat again with this...Petty, petty Clare.

Post #294 speaks for itself.
Let's just leave it at that, okay?

 

[U.S. Grant]

But the NT does not seem to treat all the Mosaic law as a whole.
Romans 13:8-10 specifically states which of the Decalogue the law of Christ fulfills. Christ's law does not fulfill the whole law.
Galatians 4:10 specifies which of the ceremonial law is being observed.
In neither of these cases, are the regulations called just "the law" and treated as a single unit.

Circumcision was necessary to enter the covenant of Abraham, to which the Mosaic covenant was simply a temporary addition (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20).
Circumcision was a sign (Genesis 17:11) of putting/cutting off the flesh (consecration to God)--as I see baptism to be in the new covenant (Colossians 2:11-12), which consecration was the condition of the Abrahamic covenant to be their God (Genesis 17:7), and which sign was then reiterated in the purification laws of Sinai because they were still under the Abrahamic covenant.

I'm not getting the connection between circumcision and love of neighbor here.

I really like your unified view.

But the NT does not seem to treat all the Mosaic law as a whole.

And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? (ex 4:8)

And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel: These are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt. (Deut 4:44-45)

Those testimonies, statutes, and judgments were written in stone with the ten commandments and the ordinances of the tabernacle and priesthood of Aaron: all being concluded as the law, which made the priesthood of Aaron by God in the mount, and was given under that priesthood to the people by Moses in the wilderness. (Heb 7:11,16)

God's law is always to be treated as whole: all the law as a whole. (2 Chron 33:8)(Gal 5:3)(James 2:10)

All the law of the God of Israel was given to Moses for the first covenant, which ended at the cross with His crucifixion, and all the law of the risen God of Israel is given to the apostles for the second covenant, which began with His resurrection.

Romans 13:8-10 specifically states which of the Decalogue the law of Christ fulfills.

I can accept 'which of the Decalogue', or some of the decalogue being in the law of Christ, which is fulfilled by the great commandment.

Therefore, there would only remain a very tiny little fine line of verbal difference between us, though the results are the same:

I say, the 'Decalogue': the words of the covenant, the ten commandments written on stone (Ex 34:28) ended with that covenant at the cross per 2 Cor 3. I.e. there is no more 'Decalogue', even as there is no more law of Moses nor first covenant of God.

God has completely changed His law; however, as you point out there are commandments written in the Law of Christ by the apostles, which were also written in the law of God by Moses:

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. (Matthew 13)

Even as some of Israel after the flesh are graft in again to the house of Israel of God, so is some of the law of Moses written in again to the law of Christ. But the old man and the law of old had to be crucified first and done away, as in sins that are past, before all things could become new and of God in Christ Jesus.

When they crucified their own Lawgiver, whom they rejected, they also crucified their law, which they idolized above the Lawgiver.

Christ's law does not fulfill the whole law. Galatians 4:10 specifies which of the ceremonial law is being observed.

Is the law of Christ partner to the law of Moses to become the whole law of God with the new covenant?

Is this not taken out of context and used to mean something entirely opposite?

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Paul specifies which of the law of Moses is being observed, and rebukes them for it. He was not acknowledging their observances of days as good Christian practise, much less commending it, but rather plainly rebuking it, even as that of outward circumcision.

The law of Christ is inward circumcision, and there is no observance of days to be kept. Trying to be 'Jewish Christians' is not being Jesus Christ Christians.

Paul is warning Christians against trying to do so in keeping any law of Moses for law of God in Christ Jesus. To do so is to beggar ourselves from worshipping and walking after the Spirit, and to be in danger of falling from grace, so that the labor of the ministry of Christ is made vain to us.

Circumcision was necessary to enter the covenant of Abraham, to which the Mosaic covenant was simply a temporary addition (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20).

Not temporary so long as the law of Moses was in effect: no more circumcision on the 8th day, no more law of Moses, which was the significance of the battle of Judaism: they wanted to retain law of Moses as necessary in living for Christ.

I say, the whole first covenant made by law was purposely temporary, so that God could bring circumcision into law. And when that law was done away at the cross, then no more people of born of flesh could rightly be called a people of promise to Abraham, because they could no more be confirmed in that promise by outward circumcision.

Circumcision of flesh was purposely put into law, so that with ending of that law would be the ending of that circumcision (Rom 2:28). The first covenant made by law of Moses was the Lord's plan of carrying outward circumcision to the grave with His dead body.

He rose again, but left the old and outward to decay and vanish away as a dead corpse of carnal flesh (Heb 8:13). But the Jews religion of so-called 'Messianic Judaism' has prevented it from vanishing of the face of the earth, by willfully abiding in unbelief, and blinding themselves to Jesus Christ by an idolatry of Moses and carnal law of circumcision.

I'm not getting the connection between circumcision and love of neighbor here.

The law of Moses could never be fulfilled, which means fully kept, by the great commandment, because that law commanded 8th day outward circumcision. A child of Israel in the first covenant could never even begin to practise the great commandment, if not first circumcised the 8th day, because that soul would be cut off from the people of Israel.

I.e. how could a first covenant child of Israel ever have the law of Moses fulfilled without 8th day circumcision, no matter how much they tried to 'love their neighbor'?

Now, the law of Christ is fulfilled by the great commandment, because no such law of carnal obedience is written in order to be accepted into the body of Christ, which is with circumcision of the Spirit, not with hands of men.

I really like your unified view.

I.e. you appreciate the consistency of my argument, as I do you, even if we don't agree in every detail. Such as my unified view of the whole law...

 

[U.S. Grant]

This is Rabbinic Judaism IMO.



I agree.

I disagree......
Just like the believing Pharisees
Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Elsewhere spoken of here by Paul.

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. {privately: or, severally }
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

These verses IMO speak of those that are among us , which attempt to bring in damnable heresies (sects, division into parties). These are those which were made manifest at the council of Jerusalem. But they enter in privily, unawares (by stealth) and attempt to pervert the Gospel.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

I agree with you, if there are those who practise old traditions, who then go on to preach them for law and doctrine of Christ. They are the division makers in the body, and do the work of Satan to bring in confusion and to sow discord among brethren. (Prov 6)

But, I was speaking of Christians of all backgrounds who still like to hold to 'cultural' traditions by personal desire, but not as by obedience to God's commandments in Christ Jesus.

For instance, any one may be circumcised of flesh for whatever reason, so long as they don't then preach that circumcision as necessity in Christian fellowship. This is what the Judaizers were doing and were rebuked for.

They were attempting to wed Judaism with Christianity, and so force every believer to become some kind of 'Jewish Christian', which is not found in Scripture.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Genesis 17:13 (NIV)
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Leviticus 24:8 (NRSV)
Every sabbath day Aaron shall set them in order before the LORD regularly as a commitment of the people of Israel, as a covenant forever.


The covenants between God and the Jews are considered forever/everlasting for a reason, that is, from a legal/lawful point of view. There's a bonding between God and those Jews remaining loyal to Him. This is indicative of the Jewish circumcision and Sabbath keeping (they are not a requirement of the gentile Christians, or not part of the New Covenant in a broader sense). If a Jewish Christian would like to keep this bonding between God and the Jews in a forever sense, he needs to be circumcised and to keep the Sabbath as a basic requirement of this forever/everlasting covenant.

That's why even Paul urged Timothy to be circumcised. By bloodline Timothy's mother is a Jew. Paul not only wanted Timothy to be a Christian, but also wanted him to be a Jew to be circumcised. This however is never a requirement of any gentile Christians.

I understand the notion that "only circumcised inwardly counts". However it doesn't seem that this doctrine fits what the Bible explicitly expresses.

In today's world, there are still 2 million orthodox Jews (out of the 20 million Jewish population) trying to abide by the Mosaic Law and Jewish customs, including circumcision and Sabbath keeping. It by no means says that God accepts today's Judaism (they are not considered saved by the standard specified through the Mosaic Law). It however says that they are still loyal to God, though they failed to recognize their own Messiah.

"Balaam" is also defined for them. Whoever Jews standing in the way of God's salvation are not counted as a Jew.

Revelation 3:9 (NIV)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

In a nutshell, God's bonding with the Jews is a forever bonding. The Jews are those circumcised and keeping the Law (Mosaic Law). They are however not counted as a Jew if they choose to stand in the way of God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

While apparently they are not saved by observing the Mosaic Law to an acceptable standard, God may still have mercy on them (some of them to be more specific) from a legal/lawful point of view.

Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

This promise of prophecy is fulfilled in Christ, with the circumcision of Christ. There is no more that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. To say that is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh, is to contradict NT teaching of Scripture, by which we interpret all the law and the prophets.

Circumcision of the flesh no more has any profit, and to say there is profit in it, then that is to contradict more NT teaching of Scripture, which says the flesh profiteth nothing.

The body of Christ now has His everlasting covenant in their flesh, in their natural bodies on earth, by the seal of circumcision of the Spirit.

Every sabbath day Aaron shall set them in order before the LORD regularly as a commitment of the people of Israel, as a covenant forever.

Then let Aaron do so, but again without profit nor hope. There is no more such priesthood in the covenant of God, and those who think to practice it are worshipping in a false religion, taught as the Jews religion in NT Scripture. (Gal 1:13)

There are not two covenants, nor priesthoods, nor circumcisions, nor promised seeds, nor faiths of God on earth at the same time. That is confusion and contrary to all Scripture given by the Spirit of God.

Once we begin to understand all Scripture and prophecy of Scripture by NT teaching, upon which all the law and the prophets hang, then it all falls into proper place.

The covenants between God and the Jews are considered forever/everlasting for a reason, that is, from a legal/lawful point of view.

It is indeed a matter of law: the law of Christ. Circumcision was included in the law of Moses in Lev 12, so that it became not just a sign and token of covenant, but a matter of law.

Once that law changed at the cross (Heb 7:12), when the true God and One Lawgiver of Israel, was crucified, then the risen God of Israel changed both the priesthood and circumcision as a matter of law of Christ: there is now only one circumcision with God, which is inward and by the Spirit.

And there is now only one everlasting covenant of circumcision given to the seed of Abraham, which is Christ (Rom 3:16): the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

The churches of God are the circumcision on earth in the flesh.

 

[pasifika]

Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

Jews are always God's people now and forever...(Gentile believers adopted the name Jews just as the natural born Jews have)