Are Jews still God's Chosen People ?

Clare73

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I believe the Gospels present rabbinic Judaism as
a rejection of Moses as well.
Did they listen to moses?
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Thanks.

I don't think that is saying they rejected Moses, but that they failed to believe Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy Moses gave in Deuteronomy 19:17-19.
 
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ralliann

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Thanks.

I don't think that is saying they rejected Moses, but that they failed to believe Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy Moses gave in Deuteronomy 19:17-19.
As Jesus often said, What's the difference? They were Judges, that were unjust. They bribed witnesses for false testimony. They knew what they were doing was not according to Moses. In this they did not believe Moses either concerning their rule as Judges.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
They also refused the baptism of John (a prophet sent to them), a baptism of repentance .
It wasn't Just Jesus, it was John as well.
Mt 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mr 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
 
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Clare73

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As Jesus often said, What's the difference? They were Judges, that were unjust. They bribed witnesses for false testimony. They knew what they were doing was not according to Moses. In this they did not believe Moses either concerning their rule as Judges.
Well, firstly, the difference is that belief can be assent to facts, and
and belief can be faith in and trust on a person (evidenced by obedience.)

Secondly, they knew it was the law of God, from God to Moses. Obedience or disobedience to the law was not related to Moses, nor an indication of either acceptance or rejection of Moses himself, but of God.

And thirdly, Jesus explained which kind of belief he was referring to when he said, "Moses wrote about me." (John 5:46) Jesus was referring to not believing a fact, he was not indicating there a rejection of Moses himself, which it would not have been anyway, but a rejection of God.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
They also refused the baptism of John (a prophet sent to them), a baptism of repentance .
It wasn't Just Jesus, it was John as well.
Mt 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mr 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
 
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ralliann

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Well, firstly, the difference is that belief can be assent to facts, and
and belief can be faith in and trust on a person (evidenced by obedience.)
I asked the difference between their own obedience to Moses.
Did they believe Moses instruction concerning just judgement? Was it evidenced by their obedience?

Belief in Moses, belief in Christ.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Secondly, they knew it was the law of God, from God to Moses.
But they taught their own traditions instead (called oral torah to this day) nullifying God's commands.
Obedience or disobedience to the law was not related to Moses, nor an indication of either acceptance or rejection of Moses himself, but of God.
Did they keep the commands to themselves as given Judges?
And thirdly, Jesus explained which kind of belief he was referring to when he said, "Moses wrote about me." (John 5:46) Jesus was referring to not believing a fact, he was not indicating there a rejection of Moses himself, which it would not have been anyway, but a rejection of God.
There is no difference here.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
They were unjust Judges, per Moses. And besides we know why they did it, the gospels tell us. Jealousy. There was no fear in their unjust practices in Judgement there. Judas hung himself...
To this day they teach oral law. Prayer replaces sacrifices, and the synagogue replaces the temple.

Though today it simply may be total ignorance. I don't know.
 
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Clare73

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I asked the difference between their own obedience to Moses.
Did they believe Moses instruction concerning just judgement? Was it evidenced by their obedience?
So the law of God didn't treat of unjust judgment, so that non-compliance would be an offense against Moses instead of against God?
Belief in Moses, belief in Christ.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me.

Did Jesus say believed in Moses, or just "believed Moses". . .
did he say believed in me, or just "believed me,"
which means believe what Moses wrote. . .
and believe what Jesus said.
But they taught their own traditions instead (called oral torah to this day) nullifying God's commands.
Did they keep the commands to themselves as given Judges?
That's between them and God, not between them and Moses.
There is no difference here.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
They were unjust Judges, per Moses
There was no law of God against unjust judgment, so that non-compliance was an offense/rejection of Moses rather than and offense/rejection of God?
And besides we know why they did it, the gospels tell us. Jealousy. There was no fear in their unjust practices in Judgement there. Judas hung himself...
To this day they teach oral law. Prayer replaces sacrifices, and the synagogue replaces the temple.
And this makes it all between them and Moses, and not between them and God, so that in doing so they reject Moses instead of God?

Does that make sense to you?
 
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ralliann

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So the law of God didn't treat of unjust judgment, so that non-compliance would be an offense against Moses instead of against God?
It was the same thing Clare. Moses spoke what God told him to speak. Just as Christ did much the same way. A prophet like Moses.
Did Jesus say believed in Moses, or just "believed Moses". . .
did he say believed in me, or just "believed me,"
which means believe what Moses wrote. . .and believe what Jesus said.
Again what is the difference? There is none. Moses spoke to the people for God. It wasn't of Moses, but from God.
Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
That's between them and God, not between them and Moses.
No difference here either... Moses spoke to them for God....
Nu 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
2Ki 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.



And this makes it all between them and Moses, and not between them and God, so that in doing so they reject Moses instead of God?
It is not me making the difference. It is the same difference.
Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.


Does that make sense to you?
You are not making sense to me. You seem to be making a distinction between obedience to Moses as though God never sent him to speak to them.
De 1:3 And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;

Jesus a prophet like Moses.

Jesus spoke what he heard of his father, he did the works of his father. ETC.
Same difference.


Unjust Judges
Lu 23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Ac 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Even as they did to the Apostles....
Ac 28:18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
It was a wicked and crooked and perverse generation of rulers.
 
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Hawkins

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In matters of opinion, I personally don't care what people think of themselves or call themselves. To me, it is simply a matter of interpretation of prophecy being disputed here, and the traditional interpretation of the Lord returning specifically for Israel after the flesh as his people is false.

God no longer has any promised people born of flesh. That ended at the cross, and now there is no profit of the flesh with God. (John 6:63)

From a lawful/legal point of view, all God's chosen witnesses are deemed savable, unless you are someone like Balaam.

That appears to be saying that anyone is God's chosen people, so long as they can still be saved, and are not reprobates like Balaam.

God won't give up on those Jews (that) keep being loyal to Him.

The problem of course is those still worshipping in the Jews religion or 'Judaism', are by definition not loyal to the risen God of Israel, whom they had crucified, and would still do so today, if He came again in like manner as before.

Those in the Jews religion are no more loyal to the true God Jesus Christ, than them in the Islamic religion, or any other false religion on earth.

The only thing they are 'loyal' to is the traditions they held to, and still hold to, instead of the Word of God they rejected for those traditions:

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Whether today's Jews are considered God's chosen people is only up to God to judge and define, not man.

Anything God has written about in Scripture is our business; otherwise, He would not have written it in Scripture.

The Bible itself never said that the Jews as a whole is not a people of God.

And that of course is your opinion, though written as a definitive statement.

They were all concluded in unbelief at the cross (Rom 11:32), even as Jesus prophesied in John 16.

Furthermore, the only Jews that are a people of God today are them circumcised inwardly, all others calling themselves Jews by outward circumcision are called liars by the Lord. (Rev 2:9,3:9)

Only those with the circumcision of Christ are called Jews by God today, and their new name is Christians:

For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (Is 62)

Genesis 17:13 (NIV)
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Leviticus 24:8 (NRSV)
Every sabbath day Aaron shall set them in order before the LORD regularly as a commitment of the people of Israel, as a covenant forever.


The covenants between God and the Jews are considered forever/everlasting for a reason, that is, from a legal/lawful point of view. There's a bonding between God and those Jews remaining loyal to Him. This is indicative of the Jewish circumcision and Sabbath keeping (they are not a requirement of the gentile Christians, or not part of the New Covenant in a broader sense). If a Jewish Christian would like to keep this bonding between God and the Jews in a forever sense, he needs to be circumcised and to keep the Sabbath as a basic requirement of this forever/everlasting covenant.

That's why even Paul urged Timothy to be circumcised. By bloodline Timothy's mother is a Jew. Paul not only wanted Timothy to be a Christian, but also wanted him to be a Jew to be circumcised. This however is never a requirement of any gentile Christians.

I understand the notion that "only circumcised inwardly counts". However it doesn't seem that this doctrine fits what the Bible explicitly expresses.

In today's world, there are still 2 million orthodox Jews (out of the 20 million Jewish population) trying to abide by the Mosaic Law and Jewish customs, including circumcision and Sabbath keeping. It by no means says that God accepts today's Judaism (they are not considered saved by the standard specified through the Mosaic Law). It however says that they are still loyal to God, though they failed to recognize their own Messiah.

"Balaam" is also defined for them. Whoever Jews standing in the way of God's salvation are not counted as a Jew.

Revelation 3:9 (NIV)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

In a nutshell, God's bonding with the Jews is a forever bonding. The Jews are those circumcised and keeping the Law (Mosaic Law). They are however not counted as a Jew if they choose to stand in the way of God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

While apparently they are not saved by observing the Mosaic Law to an acceptable standard, God may still have mercy on them (some of them to be more specific) from a legal/lawful point of view.
 
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U.S. Grant

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You are just too good to be true!

Does not Romans 13:8-10 specifically separate the Decalogue from the rest of the Sinaitic law and establish the Decalogue in
Christ's law?

And with that separation in mind, would not the "weak and miserable principles" of "special days and months and seasons and years!" (Galatians 4:9-11) be distinct from the Decalogue?
(I can already hear your response to this one.)

We do not nullify the law by faith we uphold (establish) the law (Romans 3:31; Matthew 5:17).

I'll let you tell me what I am omitting.
You are just too good to be true!

Well, don't get your hopes up too high. I am always ready to change if proven necessary, but I am very hard headed about it. Just like you. The reason being, we are only convinced to do so by convincible Scripture inthe right place and time:

How forcible are right words!

Does not Romans 13:8-10 specifically separate the Decalogue from the rest of the Sinaitic law and establish the Decalogue in Christ's law?

I was looking for a quoted Scripture stating a difference in one 'part' of law from another. (But, as with your millennialism, that i am warming up to, perhaps I can think of some Scripture for it.)

But, in the meantime, Rom 13:8-10 only establishes law of Christ. And in this place it only establishes 5 points of it as commandments.

and if there be any other commandment...

Are there any others established as points of law of Christ? Yes:

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (James 2)

Here we see respect of persons established as a point of law of Christ, which is not found in the law of Moses, along with a couple of the commandments written by Paul and confirmed by James.

And so we see no disunity of 'priority' of authority in Scriptural law and rule: respect of persons is just as much a transgression as adultery, murder, etc...in the law of Christ.

I must humbly but firmly reject the whole label of Decalogue, being either in the law of Moses, nor in that of Christ. Afterall, Nadab and Abihu were just as dead and cut off from the people of Israel for offering strange fire, as was any murderer or adulterer.

And with that separation in mind, would not the "weak and miserable principles" of "special days and months and seasons and years!" (Galatians 4:9-11) be distinct from the Decalogue?

Such days, etc... are not only weak, but are nonexistent in the law of Christ. What is weak is those who try to minister them for law of Christ, and know neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. (1 Tim 1:7)

Such errors of ministry are because the minister is not strong int he Word, and do not follow the first rule of ministry, which is to minister Scripture only, and not minister our own rule as Scripture.

(I can already hear your response to this one.)

Was it what you expected?

We do not nullify the law by faith we uphold (establish) the law (Romans 3:31; Matthew 5:17).

True. We establish the law of Christ in NT teaching, not the law of Moses, and NT teaching is established by NT scriptures written by the apostles only.

I'll let you tell me what I am omitting.

You omit nothing. You are well versed and have taught me things about 'NT teaching'. I really believe the only way I can help you is to be careful about adding things. I would say let go of even the word 'Decalogue' in NT teaching, and you would be perfect.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast...

We must sell all that we have in our own minds and made by minds of men, and keep only that which Scripture gives us as specifically written. I have learned not to even use words strange to Scripture, but only offer what is exactly written to minister the Scriptural teaching only.

I am not a scholar, and I don't talk like one.

I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son.

And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?


The only letters and words that should matter to us are those spoken by God in Scripture.
 
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U.S. Grant

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Genesis 17:13 (NIV)
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Leviticus 24:8 (NRSV)
Every sabbath day Aaron shall set them in order before the LORD regularly as a commitment of the people of Israel, as a covenant forever.


The covenants between God and the Jews are considered forever/everlasting for a reason, that is, from a legal/lawful point of view. There's a bonding between God and those Jews remaining loyal to Him. This is indicative of the Jewish circumcision and Sabbath keeping (they are not a requirement of the gentile Christians, or not part of the New Covenant in a broader sense). If a Jewish Christian would like to keep this bonding between God and the Jews in a forever sense, he needs to be circumcised and to keep the Sabbath as a basic requirement of this forever/everlasting covenant.

That's why even Paul urged Timothy to be circumcised. By bloodline Timothy's mother is a Jew. Paul not only wanted Timothy to be a Christian, but also wanted him to be a Jew to be circumcised. This however is never a requirement of any gentile Christians.

I understand the notion that "only circumcised inwardly counts". However it doesn't seem that this doctrine fits what the Bible explicitly expresses.

In today's world, there are still 2 million orthodox Jews (out of the 20 million Jewish population) trying to abide by the Mosaic Law and Jewish customs, including circumcision and Sabbath keeping. It by no means says that God accepts today's Judaism (they are not considered saved by the standard specified through the Mosaic Law). It however says that they are still loyal to God, though they failed to recognize their own Messiah.

"Balaam" is also defined for them. Whoever Jews standing in the way of God's salvation are not counted as a Jew.

Revelation 3:9 (NIV)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

In a nutshell, God's bonding with the Jews is a forever bonding. The Jews are those circumcised and keeping the Law (Mosaic Law). They are however not counted as a Jew if they choose to stand in the way of God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

While apparently they are not saved by observing the Mosaic Law to an acceptable standard, God may still have mercy on them (some of them to be more specific) from a legal/lawful point of view.

I appreciate your scholarship and thorough response; however, so long as we do not read prophecy of Scripture through the clear glass of NT teaching of Scripture, we will remain as loyal to a false interpretation of prophecy, as them that try to remain loyal to a covenant and law that is passed:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The covenants between God and the Jews are considered forever/everlasting for a reason, that is, from a legal/lawful point of view. There's a bonding between God and those Jews remaining loyal to Him.

And when the everlasting God of Israel was crucified on the cross, then that bond by covenant and law was broken and done away.

The first covenant was of flesh, both by birth and circumcision, as was also the law of a carnal commandment that made it (Heb 7:16), and now none of it is profitable with the risen God of Israel.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

Outward circumcision is now but dung with God.

If a Jewish Christian would like to keep this bonding...

There is no such thing as a 'Jewish Christian' in scripture. That was the error of the Galatian Christians, who were bewitched into trying to become 'Jewish Christians' by circumcision of flesh, and was causing them to fall from grace of God.

Paul needed rebuke Peter, who was also trying to remain a 'Jewish Christian'.

That's why even Paul urged Timothy to be circumcised.

Falling from grace to become a "Jewish Christian' was why it was sentenced that none need be circumcised outwardly for any reason.

Timothy then became willingly circumcised to remove a ministerial thorn of the flesh, when ministering to unbelieving Jews, who would never listen to the uncircumcised in the flesh, much less allow them into their synagogues of Satan.

I understand the notion that "only circumcised inwardly counts". However it doesn't seem that this doctrine fits what the Bible explicitly expresses.

It is not a notion, but an explicitly written Scriptural truth of the only circumcision that now counts with God:

Neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh...circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is now only one circumcised people on earth, and that is them walking in natural bodies with the circumcision of Christ inwardly. (Col 2:11)

They are the only remnant of the last days being built again from scratch as the tabernacle of David (Acts 15), which the risen Lord now pitches on earth. (Heb 8:2)

"Balaam" is also defined for them. Whoever Jews standing in the way of God's salvation are not counted as a Jew.

All flesh is now 'Balaam' to God, without respect of persons with God, especially them worshipping in a false religion with a profaned circumcision and Sabbath, supposing themselves 'loyal' to the God of Israel, whom they slew by unbelief:

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. (I Thess 2)

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars.

All who call themselves 'Jews' by outward circumcision are liars before God, because there is no more circumcision of flesh with God. No matter what day of the week, especially not the 8th day after birth in order to keep a law of Moses and old covenant, that the risen God of Israel no longer acknowledges as His own.

In today's world, there are still 2 million orthodox Jews (out of the 20 million Jewish population) trying to abide by the Mosaic Law and Jewish customs, including circumcision and Sabbath keeping.

And there are millions of Muslims trying to abide by Sharia law and muslim customs out of the old covenant, including circumcision and Sabbath keeping.

And neither have any honor with God. Such 'loyalty' and righteousness of man is foolishness with God, and as filthy rags, and is called by Paul will worship:

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (Col 2)

They satisfy the flesh and pride of a willful religion, but with no honor to God.

Zeal in a good thing is good (Gal 4:18), but zeal in a lie is refusing the righteousness of God by faith, in order to remain loyal to one's own righteousness sought without Scripture of God.

They need to be zealous; therefore, and repent, because no man has any promise nor bond nor favor with God in the flesh.

'Loyalty' is not a Bible word. Being sincerely wrong doesn't make it good, especially when it led to crucifying the Lord of glory. Zealously so.
 
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Clare73

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It was the same thing Clare. Moses spoke what God told him to speak. Just as Christ did much the same way. A prophet like Moses.
Again what is the difference? There is none. Moses spoke to the people for God. It wasn't of Moses, but from God.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
The difference is self evident.

If my mother tells me to tell my little brother that she said he is to come in for lunch now, I tell my little brother what Mother told me to speak, but he doesn't come in, so is my little brother in disobediene of me or our mother? Is his issue with me or with our mother? Is his disobedience of me because I am the one who spoke to him for our mother, or is his disobedience of our mother?
 
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ralliann

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The difference is self evident.

If my mother tells me to tell my little brother that she said he is to come in for lunch now, I tell my little brother what Mother told me to speak, but he doesn't come in, so is my little brother in disobediene of me or our mother? Is his issue with me or with our mother? Is his disobedience of me because I am the one who spoke to him for our mother, or is his disobedience of our mother?
if your Mother told your brother to obey what you tell him. Your mother is making no difference between your instruction and hers.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Ex 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

Ex 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

A prophet like Moses

Deut 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Same difference Clare.

Nu 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.



 
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U.S. Grant

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The difference is self evident.

True. It's not about the minister, but the one the minister for:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting the life.

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


And so, as the Bereans, we check the Scriptures to see whether they minister for the true God, or for themselves, or for another:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.
 
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Clare73

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if your Mother told your brother to obey what you tell him. Your mother is making no difference between your instruction and hers.
That's not the way it worked at our house. . .or any of my friends' homes.
My, and their, little brothers saw lots of difference between their older siblings' commands and their mother's commands.

In what families do you find your proposed arrangment operating, where younger siblings see no difference between an older sibling's commands to them and a parent's commands?

The diffference is self-evident.
 
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ralliann

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That's not the way it worked at our house. . .or any of my friends' homes.
My, and their, little brothers saw lots of difference between their older siblings' commands and their mother's commands.

In what families do you find your proposed arrangment operating, where younger siblings see no difference between an older sibling's commands to them and a parent's commands?

The diffference is self-evident.
It was how it worked at Gods house. I gave you the scriptures.
God himself spoke to Moses all he gave in commandment to Israel.
A distinction, with no difference. However it appears you think Moses spoke of himself?
Is Moses distinct from God? Certainly, but what difference did it make that Moses spoke what God told him.
 
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I believe the Gospels present rabbinic Judaism as a rejection of Moses as well.
They reject Moses to this day, even as they honor him with their lips.

The real twist of Scripture and the mystery of iniquity is when professed believers, who agree that the law of God must be fulfilled, begin to change and alter it by their own traditions, so that those traditions are made equal to the law of Scripture.

Therefore, 'rabbinical Jews' who still read Scripture through a vail of Moses, are not even reading Moses, but rather are reading their own traditions about Moses.

I.e. they give lip service to Moses, who would rise up to condemn them, as Jesus did, for their traditions that corrupt the Word of God, and so corrupt the law of God.

The same thing is being done in Christianity, where 'sacred traditions' are treated equal to the gospels and doctrine of the apostles.

They actually try to justify it by referring to the 'strong sacred traditions' of the Jews of old.

The same traditions of course being what they rejected Jesus for.
 
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