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are Jews grafted in too?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Does a Jew by heritage and by faith, subscribing to the modern view of Judaism, then becoming wholly a.believer and follower of Christ get grafted into the tree just as the Gentiles? Their identity as a faith described by a branch metaphor (Rom 11) has been broken off so no longer are they a part of the tree/root. So what role do they play when they find their way back to the tree? are they grafted in like the rest of us?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are Israel into whom God attaches all believers.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jews are the original branches, but they have become dead branches and they need to be revived by Christ (and they will be during the End Times). In the meantime, Gentiles as a whole are new tree branches that are grafted on to the tree. They are not a part of the original branches but they do take hold to the root or trunk of the tree. We are not to boast against the original branches even though blindness in part has happened to them until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Salvation is of the Jews.
    Jesus is a Jew.
    We will be resurrected after His likeness one day.
    This is why we can say Jesus is our Everlasting Father.
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    You just paraphrased Romans 11. The text tells us branches are removed. A modern Jew today who rejects Christ is not part of the tree. If they find faith through Christ they become part of the tree, but are they grafted in?
     
  6. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    So all believers are grafted in regardless where you come from
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When God removed unbelievers from Israel, many remained. Only the unbelievers remained. Paul and any Jews in his day who became believers were grafted back in. And so it has been ever since. All believers are still grafted in and the unbelievers rejected.
     
  8. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Well I will give my thoughts on a something that happened years ago. I have a friend who is a Messianic rabbi (He lives however from his own career as a Physicist). Years ago him and his wife got on my nerves quoting "the en-grafted" Olive tree passage, that your OP alludes to.


    What made me annoyed is, I came from a Church at the time that had a log lineage, the Church of East that was originally descended from Aramaic speaking Jews roughly 2 Millenia or so ago, and still had Syriac/ Aramaic as its Holy Language. But there was some kind of a patronizing tone that I got from the message (His wife was a big trouble maker in retrospect so I blame her for this). Basically they came off that I as a Christian was engrafted into Judaism and they being Jews were going to show me all the things that eluded me in my Faith (since Christianity came from Judaism).


    Anyway what especially infuriated me was looking into that movement and its history (Messianic Judaism). In spite of all the rhetoric etc. concerning the origins of Christianity etc. it really is a recent movement. It's beginning really did not start until the 1950s where the rabbi that started "Jews for Jesus"got his start and it really didn't take off until the late 1960s - early 1970s. As far as speaking organically. Judaism has been cut off from Christ for a long time. And I have proposed if St. Paul was writing in our time he might indeed acknowledge that fact.


    Anyway, knowing that and other things about that movement, especially that many people I met, and read about really struggled with the issues of Jesus as the Messiah and what that means for their Faith etc. I have argued in the past, much like the OP that in many ways the engrafted tree analogy could be said to work oppositely! This has also been clear when talking about how folks conduct their personal Faith etc. For Christians, Jesus as savior is a "no-duh" nearly self evident truth, a number of Messianics I ran across seem to be struggling with not only that truth and its full ramifications, but many basic "milk" kind of doctrines and issues that Saint Paul talks about in the epistles.



    But getting back to the OP, both believing Jews and gentile Christian are engrafted into Christ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, they were broken off. My point was that they were dead and not alive currently. But Isreal will also come back to the Lord, too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  10. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    so Israel will be grafted in too? (one day)
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But they are the original branches and not wild branches.
     
  12. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    The law points to Christ and Christ leads to salvation, so the law itself can be said to at least point to the path of salvation. I've wondered if there are those in the Jewish faith that have a sincerity and a desire to serve God to such a point it goes beyond the law and are able to follow and believe the messiah but through the law; they respond to God's voice but that voice is still present and leading them. If or when they discover Christ he is someone they already recognize and have a relationship with because they were always following his footsteps. Is this the remnant? Are these the natural branches that are never removed?

    Today, Christianity and Judaism are very different so much so that one is alien to the other. Branches from one tree to the other indeed would have to be grafted in as they are very different trees. As your Messianic rabbi friend seems to continue to live ignorant of basic Christian concepts he fails to grasp them perhaps because of he is blinded by Jewish ways and customs so much so that he misses the point (Christians do this often).

    The logic of branches being separated by the root to me extends back to the fall of man where redemption (being grafted back in) is needed for us all. This looks at grace more responsibly as the focus is about connecting with the root or using another biblical metaphor remaining in the vine and vine in you. It is not about checking a box and saying you are forgiven, or because you are from 'X' tribe then it doesn't matter. restored relationship back to God should be the goal where forgiveness is a product. With the branch metaphor, this is more clear as a branch cannot survive without a constant source from the root, not just an "as needed" basis. If you break a branch off, within hours it begins to wither.
     
  13. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the system of Judaism today seems so alien that I don't think it is recognizable to the natural branches anymore, there's an argument too that ethnically speaking Jews do not share the same blood as their forefathers. Since the destruction of the 2nd temple and subsequent mass Jewish diaspora, I'm not so sure there is even such a thing as a "natural branch" Jew anymore. Hebrew even fell out of practice and became a dead language. What a Jew now seems to be is a superimposed invention of mixed lineage... some of which may be Hebrew. Today Jewish Israel probably is as ethnically unique as an American.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  14. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Well Kevin did realize that stuff. A much different guy away from his wife, who was bad news (like abusive narcissistic personality stuff and a pot stirrer as far as making problems).


    A lot of the problem is the concept of "Reason for Existence" aka Raison d'ĂȘtre

    Evangelizing the Jesus denying Jews is a slow process, where often little is visibly accomplished ; because that side has had nearly 2000 years to perfect all their arguments and rhetoric against the Gospel. So there is a secondary purpose of the movement, as far as being a light to the gentiles. In the case of today since that is largely already done it is to point out all the contextual stuff in the Bible as far as OT footnotes and other cultural back ground stuff. Which is fine, I go out of my way to read and look up that stuff myself.


    But I think there is a lot of insecurity. Because in some ways their Reason of Existence is challenged. That they are not really accomplishing a lot etc. But mixed in with that their are lots of problems of not feeling they have much in common with your average non-Jewish believer etc. And well their is lots and lots of hand wringing over the fact that the gentiles have mostly taken over the Faith so to speak. I'm talking about exaggerated claims that Anti-Semiticism is the main culprit.

    I don't deny that has happened, but there are lots of factors etc. going on besides that, and I don't think Anti-Semiticism is the main cause.

    1) In retrospect, I really believe that some kind of Messianic Judaism was never intended to be the main vehicle for evangelizing the world. In a nutshell, I believe Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins for a reason. I don't think that Messianic Judaism had what it takes to be "All things to all people" as Paul mentioned of himself. Koshur laws and customs get in the way of that. I believe MJ has a role now but that is more as "Treasurers old and new" goes (It helps people who are really stuck in their Jewish identity and gives some unique perspective to the Body of Christ) and on the Jewish side the liturgical synagogue prayers were eventually changed so believing Jews were forced out lest they be praying for their own damnation.


    2) Most of the time when MJ's talk about Anti-Semticism, Church history etc. they frequently present a lop sided view, quite often they omit or gloss over things that I believe are extremely significant to the Church gradually becoming gentile, and the whole Christian vs. Jew dynamic that eventually evolves. I'm talking about things like the significance of Bar Kochba, the existence of heretical Jewish sects like the Ebionites (which would later help to inspire Mohammed), the nature of population growth as far as birth and evangelism (that favored gentiles), the general theology of the Church of the day that encouraged all believers to worship together to be One Body of Christ etc. (which would lead to pressure to move worship days over to Sunday etc. as the demographics of the Church changed etc.). Besides all that there was a lot of anti-gentile sentiment in the old days to go with the anti-semticism (lots of stuff in the Talmud against gentiles).

    Anyway in psychology, I learned from the school of Alfred Adler that people often interpret the past in light of the present. I really believe that is the case in this situation. Essentially people are reading Church history in light of the Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition etc. They are reading it with jaundiced eyes. I don't deny that there are problems but they want to make Anti-Semiticism a grand unifying theory of why things are the way they are, and I don't believe that is accurate because lots of other stuff was going on besides that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  15. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    clearly not since Paul's explicit example is "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews". Paul is showing us the Gospel transcends cultures and traditions. Implicitly in these words, he shows us that when we package the gospel to look and feel like a cultural or traditional expression we effectively alienate all those who don't get it so we must be strategic in how we present Christ to others. "to x-tribe we become x-tribe" is easy to say but much harder when we start filling in the blank of what "x tribe" could become, as it becomes the people we think are least deserving... yet Paul reminds us we are to become as they are to reach them not them become as we are. (Of course, Paul is clear we are still bound by Christ's law) He explains his motivation saying "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The purpose of the End Times as we see described in Revelation will be a time when the Jews will repent as a nation. They will be driven to the wall to repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah. Then, they will be like natural branches being grafted back in. They are the original branches because at one time, Israel was a chosen nation of God (Although they fell in and out of God's favor or grace). This does not mean Israel always had their heart right with God. This just means that in the End, they will repent and accept their Messiah. God chose Israel wisely. Not because of their state today, but in the end, they will make things right as a nation. How so? God already talks about this within His Word.
     
  17. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion New Member

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    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -John 14:6

    It seems Judaism hasn't accepted Christ as their messiah.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But in the End Times (some time before Christ's return) they will accept their Messiah Jesus Christ. For it is written:

    25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
    (Romans 11:25-27).
     
  19. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion New Member

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    Absolutely. In the end the Jews will accept Christ; for the past almost 2,000 years it appears they don't accept Jesus as messiah.
    There seems to be lots of technicalities here: are most Jews the descendants of the Pharisees (many Israelites converted Christianity in the 1st century). Also what is a Jew today? A definition is someone from the tribe of Judah. Ivanka Trump recently converted into Judaism, but what does that even mean?
     
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