Are Jehovah’s witnesses actually Christian?

[Ligurian]

Tricky question. The JW's seem to believe all 66 books. But how they interpret those books is up to them.

Iesus says the angels will separate the wheat from the tares, Matthew 13:24-30... so deciding who is and isn't Christian is not our job. No offense meant.

Why not question them to their face about what they believe? and maybe make them question their own beliefs. Because some of them may know no other way, having been raised up in that church.

Judging False Teachers

Matthew 7:15 ESV / 303 helpful votes
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

John 7:24 ESV / 188 helpful votes
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV / 140 helpful votes
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7:16 ESV / 126 helpful votes
You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

2 Peter 2:1-22 ESV / 116 helpful votes
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; ...

John 8:44 ESV / 94 helpful votes
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 2:2 ESV / 83 helpful votes
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

And here's the link for your post.
What Does the Bible Say About Judging False Teachers?

I don't follow the gospel to the gentiles, so I've taken the liberty to remove those quotes as well as those from the other men named Iohn, back in the day. But I've kept the 2 Peter quote, for this reason alone:
it proves that there was more than one man named Peter/Simon/Cephas writing the Peter-letters... because the Peter of Matthew 10:2 would've never written what 2 Peter wrote in your quotes, re: "false teachers"... since all of them would've been false to him.

Matthew 23:8-10 says not to even HAVE teachers other than Iesus.
John 10:1-16 says there is only one shepherd, and the others are hirelings.
--The Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel
==========================
That leaves these verses... the first is combined from two separate hits...

Matthew 7:15-16 ESV / 303 helpful votes
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

Maybe more context is needed?
THIS is what the First Testament says about false prophets:

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,[2] And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;[3] Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

John 7:24, Matthew 7:1-5 and John 8:44 of that list ...N/A...?

Revelation 2:2 ESV / 83 helpful votes
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

Context:

Revelation 2:1-7 [1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are (ἀποστόλους) apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.[7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Nikolaos = from nikos and Laodikeus; victorious over the people; Nicolaus, a heretic:--Nicolaus.
Acts 5:6 Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch ...
According to the Letters of Jerome... that's actually the guy.
(I just found it, and only skimmed Jerome's letter... so I'm still on the fence about Nicolas of Antioch.)

But it seems like, from the way it's written, that the ἀποστόλους came from that same school of thought.

apostolos = from apostello; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

They're not necessarily literal apostles, they could be only someone who's sent.

Like this verse... if it's not about the same event...
Nobody can come in the name of X and claim to be X
all at the same time...
therefore, "christos" should have been translated "anointed".

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Χριστός: and shall deceive many.

christos = from chrio; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
chrio = probably akin to chraomai through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:--anoint.

_____________________
So... it seems like poor Ephesus lost their first
"love of the brethren"... (which is what Philadelphia means)
... and became suspicious of everyone.
________________________
From one brethren to equal brethren.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And here's the link for your post.
What Does the Bible Say About Judging False Teachers?

I don't follow the gospel to the gentiles, so I've taken the liberty to remove those quotes as well as those from the other men named Iohn, back in the day. But I've kept the 2 Peter quote, for this reason alone:
it proves that there was more than one man named Peter/Simon/Cephas writing the Peter-letters... because the Peter of Matthew 10:2 would've never written what 2 Peter wrote in your quotes, re: "false teachers"... since all of them would've been false to him.

Matthew 23:8-10 says not to even HAVE teachers other than Iesus.
John 10:1-16 says there is only one shepherd, and the others are hirelings.
--The Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel
==========================
That leaves these verses... the first is combined from two separate hits...

Matthew 7:15-16 ESV / 303 helpful votes
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

Maybe more context is needed?
THIS is what the First Testament says about false prophets:

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,[2] And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;[3] Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

John 7:24, Matthew 7:1-5 and John 8:44 of that list ...N/A...?

Revelation 2:2 ESV / 83 helpful votes
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

Context:

Revelation 2:1-7 [1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are (ἀποστόλους) apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.[7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Nikolaos = from nikos and Laodikeus; victorious over the people; Nicolaus, a heretic:--Nicolaus.
Acts 5:6 Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch ...
According to the Letters of Jerome... that's actually the guy.
(I just found it, and only skimmed Jerome's letter... so I'm still on the fence about Nicolas of Antioch.)

But it seems like, from the way it's written, that the ἀποστόλους came from that same school of thought.

apostolos = from apostello; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

They're not necessarily literal apostles, they could be only someone who's sent.

Like this verse... if it's not about the same event...
Nobody can come in the name of X and claim to be X
all at the same time...
therefore, "christos" should have been translated "anointed".

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Χριστός: and shall deceive many.

christos = from chrio; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
chrio = probably akin to chraomai through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, i.e. (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service:--anoint.

_____________________
So... it seems like poor Ephesus lost their first
"love of the brethren"... (which is what Philadelphia means)
... and became suspicious of everyone.
________________________
From one brethren to equal brethren.

My wife is kicking off the Computer, so I can only respond to your use of Matthew 23:8-10.

In short, it is reguading only the original 12 disciples, Apostles --- not to all Christians of all time.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Is this a question about the theology or is this a question about the people/individules

 

[Sheila Davis]

I don’t know if this is the right place to post the Thread. But anyway Are Jehovah’s witnesses actually Christian according to God? I think so even though i don’t like their shunning practices but do you think they Are Christian?

They do not believe in the deity of Christ - they are not followers of Christ in any fashion.
Even though the name Christ is Greek given, Christos originally - the name is referring to the anointed one, in Hebrew the Messiah.
The Greek began to call the Israelites who followed and believed in Christos Christianos.
What does "Christ" actually mean? - Our Rabbi Jesus

Do you know where the word “Christian” comes from? - Jesus.net

No I would say Jehovah witnesses are not Christians, their belief is closer to Judaism.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

ameno

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Is this a question about the theology or is this a question about the people/individules

no one ever answered this question?

 

[The Liturgist]

no one ever answered this question?

I think it has to be about the Theology, since we should pray God will have mercy on people deceived into joining counterfeit Christian cults in pursuit of Christ.

 

[Graceisgraceworksareworks]

I don’t know if this is the right place to post the Thread. But anyway Are Jehovah’s witnesses actually Christian according to God? I think so even though i don’t like their shunning practices but do you think they Are Christian?

No, they preach another Jesus, and another gospel

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I think it has to be about the Theology, since we should pray God will have mercy on people deceived into joining counterfeit Christian cults in pursuit of Christ.

I find it interesting how people in the mainline talk about other groups since I was and have been part of and outlier group that has been called everything under the sun.

 

[The Liturgist]

I find it interesting who people in the mainline talk about other groups since I was and have been part of and outlier group that has been called everything under the sun.

I am no longer a member of a mainline church as is ordinarily defined (specifically, the large Protestant churches which have in North America and elsewhere become increasingly dominated by liberal seminaries, and which have experienced a tragic and devastating loss of membership, as pious Christians have been forced from their churches, literally locked out, of Episcopalian and Methodist, among other, parish churches, and in only one case thus far successfully suing to retain their property (specifically the former Episcopalian diocese of Fort Worth, which was miraculously able to leave the ECUSA and who retained ints property, unlike everyone else who left, thanks to a Supreme Court ruling).

The great offense in these cases was a failure on the part of the laity and some clergy who preferred their vocation to their pension to toe the line, the mainline politically correct position regarding issues like homosexuality, abortion, etc, in which many Christians including myself and I assume yourself regard as irreconcilable with the same faith we were taught in those churches even as recently as the 1990s or later in many cases. So that development was extremely frustrating and upsetting for me, so I can relate to your problem.

There is of course a huge difference between the SDA and the J/Ws, that being Ellen White recognizing and promulgating the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which has always been officially rejected by the mysterious hierarchy of the J/W movement. That is why I call it a cult but do not call the SDAs a cult, even though I do not personally agree with your doctrine on some important issues.

In addition to the denial of Jesus Christ as God incarnate, the J/Ws also practice shunning, like Scientology, and demand high tithes. This financial exploitation, which is reinforced by the ability of the church to shun members arbitrarily, is a defining characteristic of all cults as the term is now understood*, which is also referred to as a High Control Group in academia.

*As opposed to legitimate religious terminology in the early Church, and also in reference to both the legitimate temple worship of our Lord in Jerusalem and before that, in the Tabernacle, and the counterfeit Pagan worship of various false gods. Some people also use the word cult to refer to various heretical groups on the fringe of Christianity who are not High Control Groups or particularly interested in the contents of your wallet, but for these groups the Early Church called them heresies. That too was the appropriation of an earlier term, for previously the word had mainly been used in reference to particular schools of Hellenic philosophy.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I am no longer a member of a mainline church as is ordinarily defined (specifically, the large Protestant churches which have in North America and elsewhere become increasingly dominated by liberal seminaries, and which have experienced a tragic and devastating loss of membership, as pious Christians have been forced from their churches, literally locked out, of Episcopalian and Methodist, among other, parish churches, and in only one case thus far successfully suing to retain their property (specifically the former Episcopalian diocese of Fort Worth, which was miraculously able to leave the ECUSA and who retained ints property, unlike everyone else who left, thanks to a Supreme Court ruling).

The great offense in these cases was a failure on the part of the laity and some clergy who preferred their vocation to their pension to toe the line, the mainline politically correct position regarding issues like homosexuality, abortion, etc, in which many Christians including myself and I assume yourself regard as irreconcilable with the same faith we were taught in those churches even as recently as the 1990s or later in many cases. So that development was extremely frustrating and upsetting for me, so I can relate to your problem.

There is of course a huge difference between the SDA and the J/Ws, that being Ellen White recognizing and promulgating the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, which has always been officially rejected by the mysterious hierarchy of the J/W movement. That is why I call it a cult but do not call the SDAs a cult, even though I do not personally agree with your doctrine on some important issues.

In addition to the denial of Jesus Christ as God incarnate, the J/Ws also practice shunning, like Scientology, and demand high tithes. This financial exploitation, which is reinforced by the ability of the church to shun members arbitrarily, is a defining characteristic of all cults as the term is now understood*, which is also referred to as a High Control Group in academia.

*As opposed to legitimate religious terminology in the early Church, and also in reference to both the legitimate temple worship of our Lord in Jerusalem and before that, in the Tabernacle, and the counterfeit Pagan worship of various false gods. Some people also use the word cult to refer to various heretical groups on the fringe of Christianity who are not High Control Groups or particularly interested in the contents of your wallet, but for these groups the Early Church called them heresies. That too was the appropriation of an earlier term, for previously the word had mainly been used in reference to particular schools of Hellenic philosophy.

I was not using Mainline in that way. I was talking more about those who occupy the space theologically, biblically "biblical conservative. Think Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults. They label us an out group.

I am sorry for your experiance with the Episcopal church. I am familiar with the problems with the Methodist & Eps. Church. All do to accepting Darwinism, Radical Feminism and Rainbow issues (LGBTQI).

 

[The Liturgist]

I was not using Mainline in that way. I was talking more about those who occupy the space theologically, biblically "biblical conservative. Think Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults. They label us an out group.

I am sorry for your experiance with the Episcopal church. I am familiar with the problems with the Methodist & Eps. Church. All do to accepting Darwinism, Radical Feminism and Rainbow issues (LGBTQI).

Just to be clear my problem isn’t specific to the Episcopalians but encompasses all of the mainline churches (according to the definition I use, which does not include the SDA), because their seminaries are increasingly dominated by professors teaching “Womanist Theology”, “Queer Theology”, Postmodernism, and other intellectual concepts which are problematic for Christians.

 

[Major1]

I don’t know if this is the right place to post the Thread. But anyway Are Jehovah’s witnesses actually Christian according to God? I think so even though i don’t like their shunning practices but do you think they Are Christian?

NO!

JW'S and Mormons are certainly NOT Christians.

 

[Major1]

Just to be clear my problem isn’t specific to the Episcopalians but encompasses all of the mainline churches (according to the definition I use, which does not include the SDA), because their seminaries are increasingly dominated by professors teaching “Womanist Theology”, “Queer Theology”, Postmodernism, and other intellectual concepts which are problematic for Christians.

Agreed!

Seventh-Day Adventists (or SDA) are NOT BIBLE Christians simply because they ADD works to simple faith in Jesus Christ. According to the official Statement on Doctrine by the SDA, accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour is NOT sufficient to be saved.

SDA's teach that the life a person lives must be taken into account, even after they have died. SDA's believe exclusively in a doctrine called the "Investigative Judgment" where Christ enters into the Holy of Holies in Heaven to decide whether or not we are "worthy" to enter Heaven. I can answer that question for all SDA's right now...NO!!!

According to the Word of God, NO ONE is worthy of Heaven.

We are all sinners deserving of Hell-fire and damnation. But thank God the Father, He sent His Son Jesus Christ into the world to pay for our sins with His blood. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT (Romans 5:15; 6:23), paid for by the blood of Jesus (Colossians 1:14). Tragically, Seventh-Day Adventists ADD good works to salvation, which is a heresy.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Just to be clear my problem isn’t specific to the Episcopalians but encompasses all of the mainline churches (according to the definition I use, which does not include the SDA), because their seminaries are increasingly dominated by professors teaching “Womanist Theology”, “Queer Theology”, Postmodernism, and other intellectual concepts which are problematic for Christians.

womanist theolgy

 

[The Liturgist]

Agreed!

Seventh-Day Adventists (or SDA) are NOT BIBLE Christians simply because they ADD works to simple faith in Jesus Christ. According to the official Statement on Doctrine by the SDA, accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour is NOT sufficient to be saved.

SDA's teach that the life a person lives must be taken into account, even after they have died. SDA's believe exclusively in a doctrine called the "Investigative Judgment" where Christ enters into the Holy of Holies in Heaven to decide whether or not we are "worthy" to enter Heaven. I can answer that question for all SDA's right now...NO!!!

According to the Word of God, NO ONE is worthy of Heaven.

We are all sinners deserving of Hell-fire and damnation. But thank God the Father, He sent His Son Jesus Christ into the world to pay for our sins with His blood. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT (Romans 5:15; 6:23), paid for by the blood of Jesus (Colossians 1:14). Tragically, Seventh-Day Adventists ADD good works to salvation, which is a heresy.

Once again, you misread my post. In saying the Adventists were not Mainline, I was affirming that SDAs are “Bible Christians,” to use a term I dislike, in that the term Mainline Church refers to the large Protestant denominations which have fallen under the control of liberal clergy who ignore the opinions of the majority of Christians and even their own members, who are opposed to abortion and regard homosexuality as sinful.

The mainline churches include the “Seven Sisters” of American Protestantism:

• American Baptist Churches
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• The Episcopal Church
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Presbyterian Church (USA)
• United Church of Christ
• United Methodist Church

They also include the Moravian Church in North America, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the Reformed Church in America, the Mennonite Church in America, the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (an explicitly homosexual denomination that is characterized by high church worship), the Alliance of Baptists, which is extremely left wing, given that it consists of those denominations which left the Southern Baptist Convention when the SBC ceased to be a mainline church and became the conservative denomination we know and love, the Latvian Lutheran Church in America, the Estonian Lutheran Church in America, and finally the Church of the Brethren, the only denomination on this list where conservative members are fighting back against the pro-sexual perversion takeover with any success.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church to its credit has not budged an inch on any of these issues. I have substantial disagreements with the SDA on many issues of theology, but when it comes to the essential moral theology, I stand shoulder to shoulder with them in steadfast opposition to abortion and to any mode of living other than heterosexual marriage or celibacy for those who are not married. Thus in no respect is the SDA a mainline church, and that’s a good thing, for it secures the SDA a place among the denominations bearing the torch of Christian truth, like the Southern Baptist Convention, the Eastern Orthodox, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the Church of the Nazarene, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, the Continuing Anglicans, the Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic Church, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Christian Reformed Church, the various traditionalist Baptist churches, the Assyrian Church of the East and the related Ancient Church of the East, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Episcopal Lutheran Diocese of North America, the Anglican Church of North America, the North American Lutheran Church, the Global Methodist Church, the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians, and every other church that stands in opposition to abortion and homosexuality. All of the churches I just mentioned are mainstream and many are massive, including the SDA, which is one of the largest in the world, and none of them are mainline.

So basically, mainline churches are those Protestant churches that used to be leading members of the community but have rapidly declining and aging membership, a result of liberal theologians taking over their seminaries and pushing a radical pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-homosexuality and pro-transsexuality message. With the liberals in control of the seminaries, who are the gatekeepers of the ministry in these denominations, parishes had no choice but to accept clergy they were uncomfortable with or, if they were in a congregationalist denomination, to leave.

 

[The Liturgist]

womanist theolgy

Yeah its a thing. Except in denominations like yours, which is what I admire about the SDA.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Yeah its a thing. Except in denominations like yours, which is what I admire about the SDA.

explain what you mean

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If we define "Christian" by the Nicene Creed (which Christian Forums does do); then SDA are indeed Christian. To state or imply otherwise, is against the rules here at CF.

While I don't agree with the legalistic approach to the Sabbath and other things, Soul sleep and I don't like their view of the sacraments, they are none the less Christians.

 

[Major1]

Once again, you misread my post. In saying the Adventists were not Mainline, I was affirming that SDAs are “Bible Christians,” to use a term I dislike, in that the term Mainline Church refers to the large Protestant denominations which have fallen under the control of liberal clergy who ignore the opinions of the majority of Christians and even their own members, who are opposed to abortion and regard homosexuality as sinful.

The mainline churches include the “Seven Sisters” of American Protestantism:

• American Baptist Churches
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• The Episcopal Church
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Presbyterian Church (USA)
• United Church of Christ
• United Methodist Church

They also include the Moravian Church in North America, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the Reformed Church in America, the Mennonite Church in America, the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (an explicitly homosexual denomination that is characterized by high church worship), the Alliance of Baptists, which is extremely left wing, given that it consists of those denominations which left the Southern Baptist Convention when the SBC ceased to be a mainline church and became the conservative denomination we know and love, the Latvian Lutheran Church in America, the Estonian Lutheran Church in America, and finally the Church of the Brethren, the only denomination on this list where conservative members are fighting back against the pro-sexual perversion takeover with any success.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church to its credit has not budged an inch on any of these issues. I have substantial disagreements with the SDA on many issues of theology, but when it comes to the essential moral theology, I stand shoulder to shoulder with them in steadfast opposition to abortion and to any mode of living other than heterosexual marriage or celibacy for those who are not married. Thus in no respect is the SDA a mainline church, and that’s a good thing, for it secures the SDA a place among the denominations bearing the torch of Christian truth, like the Southern Baptist Convention, the Eastern Orthodox, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, the Church of the Nazarene, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference, the Continuing Anglicans, the Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic Church, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Christian Reformed Church, the various traditionalist Baptist churches, the Assyrian Church of the East and the related Ancient Church of the East, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Episcopal Lutheran Diocese of North America, the Anglican Church of North America, the North American Lutheran Church, the Global Methodist Church, the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians, and every other church that stands in opposition to abortion and homosexuality. All of the churches I just mentioned are mainstream and many are massive, including the SDA, which is one of the largest in the world, and none of them are mainline.

So basically, mainline churches are those Protestant churches that used to be leading members of the community but have rapidly declining and aging membership, a result of liberal theologians taking over their seminaries and pushing a radical pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-homosexuality and pro-transsexuality message. With the liberals in control of the seminaries, who are the gatekeepers of the ministry in these denominations, parishes had no choice but to accept clergy they were uncomfortable with or, if they were in a congregationalist denomination, to leave.

I did not mis-read anything in any way my friend. I responed to your words not your thoughts.

I do not accept your idea of "Mainline Christian". I understand completly what you are saying but I just do not accept it. That is YOUR opinion.

Unfortunately over time, the word “Christian” has lost a great deal of its significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values but who may or may not be a true follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who do not believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a “Christian” nation hence YOUR phrase......."Mainline Christian!"

My dear Congregational Pastor......You are either born again or you are not. You are SAVED or you are LOST!

You either accept Jesus as the Christ and His payment for your sins or you believe what a man tells you which is YOU must do something in addition to what Jesus did.

THAT my dear friend is exactly what the SDA say. And the JW'S and the Mormons and the Catholics.

Salvation is either ALL GRACE or it is not salvation at all.