Are instincts a program or a developed coincidence

pshun2404

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Whenever a behavior is inherently preformed without being based on teaching, modelling, or past experience (trial and error) we call it “instinctual”. Recently however scientists are concluding that it is more likely that these propensities and abilities are somehow already written in the genetic code or are pre-coded into what becomes their developed brain. In the former such actions would occur on a purely biological basis but if the latter is more correct (still being based in genetic transmission) then it could constitute what we could call “knowledge”, or imply that important survival based memory is itself inherited.

Most likely in the end we will discover it is both the pre-planned program of the DNA but also the knowledge/experience being somewhat passed on (thus not nature or nurture or nature versus nurture but nature plus nurture).

Examples include why Marsupials naturally know to climb into their mother’s pouch, or why all animal infants naturally suck or go for the breast, or why fish are born already knowing how to swim properly, or why newly hatched turtles automatically migrate toward the water.

These are complex systems of behavior automatically specific to each particular species. It even plays out in later ritually fathomed behaviors like courting rituals and the determination of social status within the group.

Being curious to some as to why humans, whom we allege to be potentially the most intelligent of creatures, seem to need the most assistance in adjusting and survival, some believe there may be an almost inversely proportional relationship between the higher order of brain and a lesser need for determined or encoded instinctual know how.

One can see how such pre-planned results (not similar to reflexes or the product of mere chemical reactions, yet still inherent in the newly born or developing offspring) are already built in. They are the result of code expression may be interpreted in a number of ways. It is directly analogous to how a software might be specific to a particular hardware.

Some of these that we label “fixed action patterns” appear to be initiated by a type of “sign stimulus” having once occurred kicks off the remaining or subsequent program function until it plays out to perform its intended end result or purpose (see the work of Konrad Lorenz). Therefore, though to call this “part of the design of each species” (though it would offend some depending on their paradigm) is not at all unlike a predetermined programming which is simply far beyond our ability to figure out at this time, and thus predetermined or pre-coded design is a possibility equally plausible to any other explanation of the actual data we observe. However, though present and observable in all primates and all great apes just as in all lesser species, human beings alone exhibit no such FAP’s.

From what we can tell, this species specific and survival essential programing directed the first of each of these species as assuredly as it has its offspring all the way down to present times. There is nothing to suggest the first (however many) fish offspring did not automatically know how to swim properly and know how to seek and obtain food and distinguish the good from the not good or that the earliest turtles did not migrate toward the water immediately following the hatching process, and so on.

Should one really just assume that such pre-coded knowledge, unique yet specifically essential to each different type of organism, just came about by random coincidence and mutation? If random as opposed to specific instructions were in play, I would suggest a far wider range of difference would occur within each species.

What do you think?
 
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Radagast

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Whenever a behavior is inherently preformed without being based on teaching, modelling, or past experience (trial and error) we call it “instinctual”. Recently however scientists are concluding that it is more likely that these propensities and abilities are somehow already written in the genetic code or are pre-coded into what becomes their developed brain. In the former such actions would occur on a purely biological basis but if the latter is more correct (still being based in genetic transmission) then it could constitute what we could call “knowledge”, or imply that important survival based memory is itself inherited.

I don't think anybody is arguing for a Lamarckian genetic transfer of learned memory. Rather, instinct (as distinct from behaviour taught by parents) is understood as behaviour patterns implicitly coded in the DNA.
 
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pshun2404

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I don't think anybody is arguing for a Lamarckian genetic transfer of learned memory. Rather, instinct (as distinct from behaviour taught by parents) is understood as behaviour patterns implicitly coded in the DNA.

I agree, but how did they appear in the first examples of each species?
 
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Radagast

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I agree, but how did they appear in the first examples of each species?

Either they were created that way by God, or they evolved. But part of being a given species is having those behaviour patterns already there, implicit in the DNA.
 
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com7fy8

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What do you think?
I think the DNA is for helping to produce brain structures needed for instinctual behavior, but I understand that the actual behaviors are gifts of God; but they do need the nervous structuring and basic functions which are connected more or less to DNA.

So, may be it's like how you need a pattern for making a glove for doing work. But there needs to be the hand inside the glove in order for the glove to function.
 
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Ophiolite

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Whenever a behavior is inherently preformed without being based on teaching, modelling, or past experience (trial and error) we call it “instinctual”. Recently however scientists are concluding that it is more likely that these propensities and abilities are somehow already written in the genetic code or are pre-coded into what becomes their developed brain.
Setting aside a strong preference for instinctive over instinctual, as long as I have been aware of instinctive behaviour - some 50 years - it has always referenced instructions held in some manner, directly or indirectly, in the genetic code. How else are you proposing an instinctive behaviour could arise. i.e I do not understand what you mean by the vague phrase "A purely biological basis".

As Radagast has pointed out Lamarkism is dead. Ironically, perhaps the last significant supporter of it was Darwin*, who vacillated over the extent of natural selection in later editions of On the Origin of Species, and in other writing, private and public.

Should one really just assume that such pre-coded knowledge, unique yet specifically essential to each different type of organism, just came about by random coincidence and mutation?
You know that natural selection is not random and that the emergence of instinctive behaviour is therefore not random. Next time I see you peddling that disinformation I'll hit the Report button. Enough is enough!

*I'm throwing that out there as a guess, since I don't recall reading any significant 20th century defences of Lamarkism, but that could be the chance of selection.
 
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pshun2404

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Setting aside a strong preference for instinctive over instinctual, as long as I have been aware of instinctive behaviour - some 50 years - it has always referenced instructions held in some manner, directly or indirectly, in the genetic code. How else are you proposing an instinctive behaviour could arise. i.e I do not understand what you mean by the vague phrase "A purely biological basis".

As Radagast has pointed out Lamarkism is dead. Ironically, perhaps the last significant supporter of it was Darwin*, who vacillated over the extent of natural selection in later editions of On the Origin of Species, and in other writing, private and public.

You know that natural selection is not random and that the emergence of instinctive behaviour is therefore not random. Next time I see you peddling that disinformation I'll hit the Report button. Enough is enough!

*I'm throwing that out there as a guess, since I don't recall reading any significant 20th century defences of Lamarkism, but that could be the chance of selection.

Asking to hear what others think is not reportable so report away. Also I never said Natural selection was random. However I do like what you said here...

"referenced instructions held in some manner, directly or indirectly, in the genetic code."

And Lamarkism never even came to mind but thanks for the commentary regarding it.

What interested me is that since the first generations of fish automatically knew how to swim (for one example of many) how did those specifically coded instructions come about? I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?

Believe me I know no one really knows, but it is still interesting to ponder the possibilities. If they exist in the first of any such creatures (like the turtle) then the organism already had them in place at their emergence.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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Asking to hear what others think is not reportable so report away. Also I never said Natural selection was random. However I do like what you said here...

"referenced instructions held in some manner, directly or indirectly, in the genetic code."

And Lamarkism never even came to mind but thanks for the commentary regarding it.

What interested me is that since the first generations of fish automatically knew how to swim (for one example of many) how did those specifically coded instructions come about? I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?

Believe me I know no one really knows, but it is still interesting to ponder the possibilities. If they exist in the first of any such creatures (like the turtle) then the organism already had them in place at their emergence.
There's a rich record of organisms not doing any swimming before a random nerve twitch kicked the whole thing off.. (pun intended)

once organisms that are twitching began scoring goals easier (you know, eating, reproducing), it would be a pinch to then see more structured twitching to start winning out over more random twitching, then Voila! Evolution by Natural Selection in full swing!
 
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DogmaHunter

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However, though present and observable in all primates and all great apes just as in all lesser species, human beings alone exhibit no such FAP’s.

Disagree.

We automatically breath.
We automatically suck our mother's breasts.
We have instinctive reactions to perceived danger: we protect our head with our hands, we jump to the side,... depending on the situation. We don't consciously decide to do so. It just happens.

We also have remnants of instinctive behaviours that can be traced back to our primate ancestry but which no longer have any use.

You can even test this out for yourself.
Next time you hold a baby, touch the inside palm of his hand. You'll notice that the child will have an instant grappling reflex. The fun part: this effect also happens when you touch the bottom of his/her feet.

The origins of this reflex?

This:

upload_2018-5-18_16-15-2.png
 
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DogmaHunter

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Also I never said Natural selection was random.

But you did (deliberatly?) ommit it from your statement of "random coincidence / mutation".
If you KNOW that natural selection is NOT random... then that isn't a very honest thing to do.


What interested me is that since the first generations of fish automatically knew how to swim (for one example of many) how did those specifically coded instructions come about? I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?

Believe me I know no one really knows, but it is still interesting to ponder the possibilities. If they exist in the first of any such creatures (like the turtle) then the organism already had them in place at their emergence.

You keep talking about the "first" generation of X or the "first" examples of Y.
This makes me think that you don't really understand the gradual nature of evolution.
 
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pshun2404

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There's a rich record of organisms not doing any swimming before a random nerve twitch kicked the whole thing off.. (pun intended)

once organisms that are twitching began scoring goals easier (you know, eating, reproducing), it would be a pinch to then see more structured twitching to start winning out over more random twitching, then Voila! Evolution by Natural Selection in full swing!

Were any fish? And if so can you show some actual examples here?
 
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pshun2404

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Disagree.

We automatically breath.
We automatically suck our mother's breasts.
We have instinctive reactions to perceived danger: we protect our head with our hands, we jump to the side,... depending on the situation. We don't consciously decide to do so. It just happens.

We also have remnants of instinctive behaviours that can be traced back to our primate ancestry but which no longer have any use.

You can even test this out for yourself.
Next time you hold a baby, touch the inside palm of his hand. You'll notice that the child will have an instant grappling reflex. The fun part: this effect also happens when you touch the bottom of his/her feet.

The origins of this reflex?

This:

View attachment 229027

Maybe I did not phrase that as well as I should have. Of course we demonstrate instinctual or instinctive behaviors, and these are from "referenced instructions" predetermined IN "the genetic code"...and I was not referring to reflexes at all which however are also pre-programmed in the coding from before our fully developed birth. (go back to post #1)

Fixed Action Patterns and Their Human Manifestations | RealClearScience

From as early as the embryonic stage it is already a foregone conclusion that this organism will demonstrate these reflexes and they are also part of the expression of the played out code's intent (and I am not referring to the code making a mental choice).

When the software does its job the correct hardware performs the correct functions of the program's intention. For example, I had a 10 year old Dell computer with XP professional as the OS that simply could not use Windows 10 software (that hardware was not capable). The same is most likely true for biochemical codes. Certain hardware can do some things other hardware cannot. For an example of this, consider that a fish embryo can never develop fully functional lungs and breath successfully outside of the water. As an autonomic function it is not part of the program (referenced instructions). The hardware simply is not equipped to handle the software's inherent intention or purpose.
 
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Ophiolite

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Asking to hear what others think is not reportable so report away.
The reporting issue is your misrepresentation of the evolutionary process, wherein you assert - and I quote your exact words - "Should one really just assume that such pre-coded knowledge, unique yet specifically essential to each different type of organism, just came about by random coincidence and mutation?"

No evolutionist would make this claim, for you have omitted necessary reference to natural selection, as DogmaHunter has already pointed out. That may have the appearance of asking for an opinion, but by deliberately failing to mention natural selection you make false implications about the nature of evolutionary theory. The diplomatic way ofdescribing this is "lacking verisimililitude".

In the interests of respectful ongoing dialogue I ask you not to repeat the offence.

And Lamarkism never even came to mind but thanks for the commentary regarding it.
It may not have entered your mind, but it appeared to enter your post. You said this:"Most likely in the end we will discover it is both the pre-planned program of the DNA but also the knowledge/experience being somewhat passed on (thus not nature or nurture or nature versus nurture but nature plus nurture)."
The emboldened words (my emphasis) are exacty what Lamarkism is about - the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Unfortunately, from my viewpoint, there is no evidence for it.

What interested me is that since the first generations of fish automatically knew how to swim (for one example of many) how did those specifically coded instructions come about? I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?
In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King.
 
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pshun2404

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The reporting issue is your misrepresentation of the evolutionary process, wherein you assert - and I quote your exact words - "Should one really just assume that such pre-coded knowledge, unique yet specifically essential to each different type of organism, just came about by random coincidence and mutation?"

No evolutionist would make this claim, for you have omitted necessary reference to natural selection, as DogmaHunter has already pointed out. That may have the appearance of asking for an opinion, but by deliberately failing to mention natural selection you make false implications about the nature of evolutionary theory. The diplomatic way ofdescribing this is "lacking verisimililitude".

In the interests of respectful ongoing dialogue I ask you not to repeat the offence.

It may not have entered your mind, but it appeared to enter your post. You said this:"Most likely in the end we will discover it is both the pre-planned program of the DNA but also the knowledge/experience being somewhat passed on (thus not nature or nurture or nature versus nurture but nature plus nurture)."
The emboldened words (my emphasis) are exacty what Lamarkism is about - the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Unfortunately, from my viewpoint, there is no evidence for it.

In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King.


The reporting issue is your misrepresentation of the evolutionary process, wherein you assert - and I quote your exact words - "Should one really just assume that such pre-coded knowledge, unique yet specifically essential to each different type of organism, just came about by random coincidence and mutation? No evolutionist would make this claim...”

First off there certainly are some who believe this, unless you are invoking the “true Scotsman” fallacy (hence no TRUE evolutionist believes this). So feel free to report me to the dogma police if you wish. If not by random slowly accumulated small mutations (which succeeded via natural selection) then how? Intent? Purpose? And please spare me the circular thinking shpeal...

"Most likely in the end we will discover it is both the pre-planned program of the DNA but also the knowledge/experience being somewhat passed on (thus not nature or nurture or nature versus nurture but nature plus nurture)."
The emboldened words (my emphasis) are exactly what Lamarkism is about”


Strange...I was thinking along the lines of epigenetic factors, but if you reject these that's fine.

To I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?

You replied “In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King” (a totally nonsensical response).

The question is both reasonable and logical and proposes an IF/THEN scenario. The referenced instructions in the genetic code (not my words but I certainly believe they are there) had to have been there, in place and functional in the first variations of fish. Or were they just twitching creatures (not my words) for a few million generations as these “referenced instructions” came about? What do you think?
 
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Ophiolite

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First off there certainly are some who believe this, unless you are invoking the “true Scotsman” fallacy (hence no TRUE evolutionist believes this). So feel free to report me to the dogma police if you wish. If not by random slowly accumulated small mutations (which succeeded via natural selection) then how? Intent? Purpose? And please spare me the circular thinking shpeal...
1. I am unaware of any evolutionary scientists who believes evolution to be a random process. It is a process wherein random variations are selected. You have said as much here. You did not say as much in the post to which I objected. That's all you have to do in future: be honest and present the evolutionists' view accurately.

Now, if your seriously believe that there are evolutionary scientists who do not believe this, then just provide a citation to their published work where they state as much. Otherwise cease your misleading rhetoric. It is extremely unattractive.

Strange...I was thinking along the lines of epigenetic factors, but if you reject these that's fine.
Epigenetic factors do not offer any long-term, significant mechanism for the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For personal reasons I regret this, since I have been seeking such a plausible mechanism as a vital element in an SF novel I have had on the backburner for four decades.

To I sense you believe they developed over time (emerged). But then how did the fish exist successfully in their environment though all that time it had not yet developed as "referenced instructions...in the genetic code"?

You replied “In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King” (a totally nonsensical response).
Seriously? I have to spell it out?

Any characteristic, no matter how small, that conveys an advantage, no matter how small, will be favoured by natural selection.

The fishy ancestors did not have the full range of fishy swimming skills. They didn't need them. They were not competing with other fish. They were competing with other fish ancestors, some of whom had not chanced to acquire a tiny bit of wriggling movement, a movement that provided a survival advantage.

"In the country of those incapable of swimming, the one-wriggle wonder is King."

In short, my answer was concise, pointed and relevant. I even translated it from the Latin for you (in regione caecorum rex est luscus), thus invoking memories of the H.G.Wells short story, which in turn was a peace offering, since the theme of the story provides the only plausible counter attack you could have to my remark. But it seems concision, elegance and erudition are not your thing. I'll keep that in mind.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Being curious to some as to why humans, whom we allege to be potentially the most intelligent of creatures, seem to need the most assistance in adjusting and survival, some believe there may be an almost inversely proportional relationship between the higher order of brain
Humans are born dead in sin and trespessas, enemies of Christ Jesus.
"most intelligent" doesn't help serve God - it instead leads away from Him, so He calls man's intelligence, knowledge and wisdom FOOLISHNESS. (like all of man's /society's endeavors - foolishness) apart from Christ and keeping men from finding God's Kingdom.
 
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