Are images of Jesus allowed?

[GenemZ]

OK, the usage as given by Strong's doesn't indicate more than keeping hair looking good, which fits what I've found. The modern usage is irrelevant except perhaps to show a direction of drift of meaning. So as I wrote earlier, κομάω includes the meaning of "styled or ornamental hair" but does not require it.

I really wish I hadn't given away my TDNT!

Most Roman men kept their hair relatively short as a sign of dignity and control.

Roman haircare - Corinium Museum

 

[Roymond]

Why is your one example of the wrongness of images of Christ one modern image of Christ produced and particularly popular within Western Christianity, then? Is your problem that Western Christians don't observe Jewish law or custom concerning images or haircuts, or is your problem with the supposed 'paganism' of having long hair, or...what exactly is the problem here?

The iconoclastic side of this thread is really spread thin.

I think we're drifting into "If it's okay to have pictures of Jesus, how accurate do they need to be?"

In which case, turning the image from the Shroud of Turin into a positive image --

results in something a lot closer to Orthodox icons:

That's the oldest known icon; here's something more modern:

A bit different style suggests that maybe today's images of Jesus come from the Byzantine court of the fourth or fifth century, where Jesus got depicted as Emperor of the World:

That's a very old painting, and a lot of icons copy it but with the stylistic icon approach.

 

[Roymond]

Jewish men, other than those who had taken a Nazarite vow.... did not wear long hair.

Maybe -- but you need a source.

And, Judas needed to point Jesus out with a kiss. One reason? He wore hair like the typical Jewish young man. Like everyone else.

Absalom had long hair and the Scriptures made it a point to make it known. It was not the norm in Israel. Same for Samson.

Absalom was centuries earlier, as was Samson. Customs and cultures change.

Judas identifying Jesus with a kiss is actually a complex subject, but this is plausible. OTOH, we don't actually know what they considered properly short hair (unless you know of a source regarding first-century Judaism).

Although there is one thing we can say for certain: at the start of His ministry, Jesus wore His hair above the shoulder -- anything longer would have been bad for doing carpentry, and binding it up in a braid or such would have just provided a place for sawdust to collect and have to be combed out. In an article I read a few years back about Joseph stated that a carpenter's hair would not likely have reached lower than the top of the jawbone, but there was a reason Joseph's hair would likely have been even shorter: given his location and the Roman building projects in the region Joseph would almost certainly have been hired for one or more of those (note: the Greek term τέκτων (TEK-tone) is generally translated 'carpenter' but included craftsmen we would call "general contractor" today, a meaning quite fitting for the "general contractor" of the universe), and when working for the Romans a man would get treated better if he cut his hair like a Roman. Back in Italy, that might have included some longer versions, but out in the distant province of 'backwards' Judea it most likely meant a legion cut, nice and short and suitable for putting a helmet over.

Though as a boy Jesus would have just let His hair grow; that was fairly common all around the Mediterranean; in that case He would have gotten a "man's cut" before heading to the Temple when He was twelve.

 

[Diamond72]

Francis Schaeffer's "Art and the Bible" was a good, short look at this topic and helped me immensely.

Francis Schaeffer and his wife have helped me a lot. He came to our church and gave teaching once. He had a class for singles which was rare at the time. He said we need to be persistent in prayer over time. We do not always get instant results. Like if someone was in a wheelchair or something serious. Do not give up, keep praying and you will see results even if we do not get all of what we want. God will honor our prayers and over time. This has helped me a lot over the years. This was like 30 years ago. Ephesians 6:18 There was controversy though because he was an X catholic priest that left the catholic church to marry his wife. Some of the x Catholics were upset about that. But they had left the catholic church also. So often we want instant results and this is not always the way it works. We need to persist in our seeking after God, His will, and His plan for us.

 

[Diamond72]

results in something a lot closer to Orthodox icons:

closer maybe, I am not sure about the "lot" part.

 

[prodromos]

Jewish men, other than those who had taken a Nazarite vow.... did not wear long hair.

Still waiting for a non subjective explanation of how long long is.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Francis Schaeffer and his wife have helped me a lot. He came to our church and gave teaching once. He had a class for singles which was rare at the time. He said we need to be persistent in prayer over time. We do not always get instant results. Like if someone was in a wheelchair or something serious. Do not give up, keep praying and you will see results even if we do not get all of what we want. God will honor our prayers and over time. This has helped me a lot over the years. This was like 30 years ago. Ephesians 6:18 There was controversy though because he was an X catholic priest that left the catholic church to marry his wife. Some of the x Catholics were upset about that. But they had left the catholic church also. So often we want instant results and this is not always the way it works. We need to persist in our seeking after God, His will, and His plan for us.

Wow! I'm very envious that you had a chance to meet him in person . As things in our current culture get... increasingly "interesting"... his foresight and stance looks more and more prescient each day. We need a hundred guys like him.

 

[Diamond72]

Every image of Jesus today is false.

They are usually an image of someone the artist thinks looks like Jesus.

 

[Roymond]

Most Roman men kept their hair relatively short as a sign of dignity and control.

Roman haircare - Corinium Museum

Read farther:

Men also curled and dyed their hair to try to preserve the image of youth.

BTW, there's an error in that article. It claims "Indeed, the word ‘barbarian’ comes from the Latin barba, meaning ‘beard’". Not so: the origin of "barbarian" is Greek, not Roman, and it was a mocking term; to the Greeks, foreign languages sounded like just jabber, and they mocked it by saying "bar-bar-bar-bar", which led to the term "bar-bar-os", 'one who talks like bar-bar'. The word got adopted into Latin directly (the Romans didn't like being called "bar-bar", so they adopted the word and made it refer to anyone not a Greek or Roman. The Latin barba came about because Romans for centuries were clean-shaven while most of the barbarians they dealt with weren't, so "barba" got coined to describe the hair on the faces of the "bar-bar" ones.

In my Greek readings courses we actually came across the use of "bar-bar-bar" referring to the speech of foreigners, specifically Macedonians and Persians (the Macedonians got their revenge when Philip of Macedon learned Greek and required all his nobles to speak it, and then his son Alexander conquered them all).

Trivia: Athens, which first made slavery significant in the Mediterranean world, didn't have racial slavery like the U.S. did, they had language slavery: anyone who to the Greeks sounded like they were saying "bar-bar-bar" could be enslaved; anyone who spoke (good) Greek couldn't be.

 

[Diamond72]

Wow! I'm very envious that you had a chance to meet him in person . As things in our current culture get... increasingly "interesting"... his foresight and stance looks more and more prescient each day. We need a hundred guys like him.

He died early at 73 but his wife lived to be almost 100. You are right though. I wished there were a lot more like him. We need to get results when we pray or people will get discouraged and turn away from God.

 

[GenemZ]

Still waiting for a non subjective explanation of how long long is.

Question:

How come every time this subject comes up?

Males with long hair become short tempered?

grace and peace .........

 

[GenemZ]

Read farther:

Men also curled and dyed their hair to try to preserve the image of youth.

OK... that shows you read it.. Thank you.

Image of youth indicates that they kept their hair relatively short as well. That was the style.

Curling does not mean long hair..

 

[prodromos]

Well? In that case? Keep waiting then.. It may take a very long time.

And, its not worth it.

Redeeming my time is my priority.

Question:

How come every time this subject comes up?

Males with long hair become short tempered?

grace and peace .........

I'm not short tempered, I'm simply asking you to back up your thus far unsupported claims.

 

[prodromos]

OK... that shows you read it.. Thank you.

Image of youth indicates that they kept their hair relatively short as well. That was the style.

Curling does not mean long hair..

So now you are providing evidence that the pagans had short hair, yet you earlier claimed that they had long hair, or at least their priests did. You seem to be all over the place.

 

[Diamond72]

Still waiting for a non subjective explanation of how long long is.

The length is not the issue. The ban is on cutting or shaving. The Hasidic Rabbi follow this today.

 

[prodromos]

I still haven't found anything solidly supporting that; the word itself is hard to find so I'm hunting the verb behind it, κομάω. The closest is "wear tresses of hair", which indicates it is kept attractively and possibly decoratively. Later on, by a half dozen centuries (or a bit longer) the word is used of caring for hair and beautifying it, but projecting a meaning backwards over centuries is as bad as projecting one forward over centuries. What I can say so far is that κομάω includes the meaning of "styled or ornamental hair" but does not require it.

It isn't the only word with little information. One of my favorite examples is "ακρίδες". Virtually every lexicon out there defines it solely as "locusts", where it is also the plural of "ακρις" which is the edible tip of plant shoots. The Greek monks on Mt Athos have a chuckle about most of the Christian world believing that John the Baptist ate locusts.

Though there's another issue: Paul uses the same word about women; are we to read that women must style their hair just as men aren't to style theirs? That's kind of pushing it. I found on conjectured compromise: "wearing hair long enough to be styled", which has its own problems -- who decides hair is long enough to be styled?

Paul describes the woman's hair as her crown, and most crowns in antiquity tend to be fairly ornate.

 

[GenemZ]

I'm not short tempered, I'm simply asking you to back up your thus far unsupported claims.

Not all are not unsupported. I just assume you have long hair and be done with it.

 

[prodromos]

Not all are not unsupported.

Triple negative, wow!

I just assume you have long hair and be done with it.

My hair is just long enough now to tie behind my head which keeps it out of my eyes. Before I let it grow it would require constant trimming as it would grow back quickly and otherwise require the use of hair gel to keep it out of my eyes and I no longer need to waste money on either. My understanding of Paul's comment to the Corinthians however has not changed with the longer length of my hair. I had the same understanding back when I had my hair cut short.

 

[followchristianity]

God tells us that we should not make an idol/statue or picture/image of anything to be used in the place of God. So using pictures and statues of God or Jesus and bowing down to them as if they had special powers is absolutely forbidden. The use of icons and pictures

 

[prodromos]

God tells us that we should not make an idol/statue or picture/image of anything to be used in the place of God. So using pictures and statues of God or Jesus and bowing down to them as if they had special powers is absolutely forbidden. The use of icons and pictures

Somebody hasn't read the thread.