Are Gentiles God's chosen people?

[Torah Lishmah]

The same way Jacob did, as he received the same blessing. It's even called "Abraham's blessing" Gen. 28 3-4. Seed just means descendant. There's nothing magical there. You came to the Jesus conclusion based on NT text only. Ask the question re.identity of the "seed" based on the text of the Torah and what do you get? Isaac and later Jacob. BTW that's called honesty.

Excellent reply Danny. Unfortunately, your opponent ignored it completely.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Knowledge is the blessing, as the gospel is preached to every nation, the light shines upon the individual souls within that nation and it becomes a better place because its light.

Great theory, except for the fact that very few Christians and Messianics even know what the gospel of the Kingdom is, and it definitely has not been preached for two thousand years now, because of that. Ask ten Christians what the gospel is, and you will get ten different answers. Try it once. Seriously.

Before you ask, I don't have the kind of time on my hands at the moment that is required to explain what the gospel of the Kingdom is in detail. You can answer it for yourself though. Here's how. First and foremost, and this is the most important part, clear everything "Paul" from your mind! Now, if you have a red lettered edition of the synoptic gospels, read the red text only, there is your answer. Jesus, and Paul definitely preached two separate "gospels." I understand it is difficult for a believer in Jesus to ignore Paul's words, but it is absolutely required to know what the gospel of the Kingdom truly is. Also, I will not argue with anyone on this point if they accept what Paul has to say about the gospel of the Kingdom. Actually, I should say "gospels" (plural) because Paul preached several of them. At least everyone in Asia wised up, they must have known the Torah pretty well:

(2Ti 1:15)
You know that everyone in the province of Asia turned away from me, including Phygelus and Ermogenes.

It is amazing how Christians completely miss this verse, or completely ignore it! Don't you think that is a pretty important verse? The founder of Christianity isn't Jesus at all, it's Paul!

 

[ContraMundum]

Great theory, except for the fact that very few Christians and Messianics even know what the gospel of the Kingdom is, and it definitely has not been preached for two thousand years now, because of that. Ask ten Christians what the gospel is, and you will get ten different answers. Try it once. Seriously.

I like to think that there are many aspects to the Gospel of the Kingdom, so there is not one single answer, but there tends to still be agreement. What people have done in the past has been to use the word "Gospel" to mean the doctrine of justification or whatever else. This is where the confusion begins IMHO.

At least everyone in Asia wised up, they must have known the Torah pretty well:

(2Ti 1:15)
You know that everyone in the province of Asia turned away from me, including Phygelus and Ermogenes.

It is amazing how Christians completely miss this verse, or completely ignore it! Don't you think that is a pretty important verse? The founder of Christianity isn't Jesus at all, it's Paul!

The only real problem with that argument is that ultimately Paul was accepted by all of Asia minor. It seems that he was successful in clearing up the misunderstandings or heresies that may have come up. He of course had the backing of the rest of the Church including the Apostles. We find this out from careful NT study and examination. It's been done a-plenty here so I won't re-hash it because it's not a biggie for me.,

 

[Torah Lishmah]

We celebrate it to the extent we are, conform to or imitate the Jews to whom this festival was given. Never did God send a messenger to the eskimoes, aztecs or vikings, telling them any thing about a Shavu'ot; never did God send a messenger to the angles, saxons, jutes, manchu or dravidians, telling them anything about an omer count, or any such thing.

I like your posts. One of very few followers of Jesus who knows Tanakh, and Judaism on this forum. Keep up the good work!

 

[Torah Lishmah]

What people have done in the past has been to use the word "Gospel" to mean the doctrine of justification or whatever else. This is where the confusion begins IMHO.

A perfectly valid opinion, too. However, if the gospel of the Kingdom is so well known (as it should be) then why all the confusion? This is supposed to be a central tenant of Christianity, and so many of them know so little about it.

The only real problem with that argument is that ultimately Paul was accepted by all of Asia minor. It seems that he was successful in clearing up the misunderstandings or heresies that may have come up. He of course had the backing of the rest of the Church including the Apostles. We find this out from careful NT study and examination. It's been done a-plenty here so I won't re-hash it because it's not a biggie for me.,

Do you have a link, please? I would be interested in reading about that. I've never seen it brought up here before. Thank you.

 

[daq]

At least everyone in Asia wised up, they must have known the Torah pretty well:

(2Ti 1:15)
You know that everyone in the province of Asia turned away from me, including Phygelus and Ermogenes.

It is amazing how Christians completely miss this verse, or completely ignore it! Don't you think that is a pretty important verse? The founder of Christianity isn't Jesus at all, it's Paul!

Paul does actually claim to be a Pharisee ya know?
The two proper names from 2 Timothy 1:15 are found nowhere else in the writings of Paul. This makes the rendering suspect from the start because we have no other references to these names anywhere, (or do we?). It is possible that the text may not even contain personal names of individuals that Paul had known:

"Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faithfulness and love which is in Messiah Yeshua; that good thing which was committed unto thee guard through the Holy Spirit which dwells in us: this you know, for all those of Asia have turned away from me, which are fugitives and born of Hermes."

And who might this "Hermes" refer to then? See Acts 14:12 where those not understanding the teachings of Paul or the power of the Spirit which worked through him, (and Barnabas) ended up thinking Paul himself to be Mercury or Mercurius, (same Greek word for Hermes). Thus, essentially, if my understanding of the passage you have quoted from Timothy is correct then Paul is speaking of those who misunderstand his teachings and employing the name which those same people tried to label him with in Acts 14:12, (Hermes-Mercury). So while what you say about Christianity may be true, in that much modern doctrine is based primarily on Paul while disregarding the Testimony of Yeshua where the two appear to contradict, (to the natural mind) still yet the same erroneous teachings are not based on what Paul actually teaches but rather they are based in misunderstandings of what Paul wrote, (because of a lack of understanding concerning what things Yeshua actually teaches). But even more importantly what you say concerning Paul is based on a "single-shot" verse, (a recipe for error) and in addition it is a passage which employs supposedly proper names of individuals which are referenced nowhere else in the writings of Paul or the N/T, and therefore your supposition is entirely speculative and likely mistaken. As for the gospel of the kingdom teachings of Paul he is in full agreement with Yeshua when he says: "The kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual-observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!" (Luke 21:20-21). It is people who do not understand Yeshua that think Paul teaches something different whether for the better or for the worse.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

As for the gospel of the kingdom teachings of Paul he is in full agreement with Yeshua when he says: "The kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual-observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!" (Luke 21:20-21).

I'm out of time for tonight, but I should have time to address your post in full sometime tomorrow. I would love to hear your interpretation of the above text before I begin, if you don't mind, my friend. Particularly the underlined portion. That's an important thing to get correct.

 

[daq]

I'm out of time for tonight, but I should have time to address your post in full sometime tomorrow. I would love to hear your interpretation of the above text before I begin, if you don't mind, my friend. Particularly the underlined portion. That's an important thing to get correct.

Until tomorrow then!

If you are planning to comment concerning entos don't forget mesos.
That is, mesos in a context, like as the way it is used in the following statement:

Matthew 18:19-20
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos - among] of them.

Mesos is clearly not used in the same way as "entos" in the Luke passage:

Luke 17:20-21
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [GSN#3907 parateresis - ocular evidence]
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos - inside, i.e. your soul] you [GSN#5216 humon - yourselves].

 

[visionary]

Great theory, except for the fact that very few Christians and Messianics even know what the gospel of the Kingdom is, and it definitely has not been preached for two thousand years now, because of that. Ask ten Christians what the gospel is, and you will get ten different answers. Try it once. Seriously.....

How much faith in the truth must a person receive before it is declared that they have received the gospel preached to them? The woman at the well received the news that the long awaited Messiah is here and to her that was the "gospel" of the Kingdom. IT means many things to many people, but for the most part, knowing that God of Love came to earth in the flesh to re-introduce hope of salvation through Him is what people can grasp as the "gospel of the Kingdom".

 

[mercy1061]

A perfectly valid opinion, too. However, if the gospel of the Kingdom is so well known (as it should be) then why all the confusion? This is supposed to be a central tenant of Christianity, and so many of them know so little about it.

Do you have a link, please? I would be interested in reading about that. I've never seen it brought up here before. Thank you.

Gospel from the kingdom means good news.

 

[mercy1061]

Great theory, except for the fact that very few Christians and Messianics even know what the gospel of the Kingdom is, and it definitely has not been preached for two thousand years now, because of that. Ask ten Christians what the gospel is, and you will get ten different answers. Try it once. Seriously.

Before you ask, I don't have the kind of time on my hands at the moment that is required to explain what the gospel of the Kingdom is in detail. You can answer it for yourself though. Here's how. First and foremost, and this is the most important part, clear everything "Paul" from your mind! Now, if you have a red lettered edition of the synoptic gospels, read the red text only, there is your answer. Jesus, and Paul definitely preached two separate "gospels." I understand it is difficult for a believer in Jesus to ignore Paul's words, but it is absolutely required to know what the gospel of the Kingdom truly is. Also, I will not argue with anyone on this point if they accept what Paul has to say about the gospel of the Kingdom. Actually, I should say "gospels" (plural) because Paul preached several of them. At least everyone in Asia wised up, they must have known the Torah pretty well:

(2Ti 1:15)
You know that everyone in the province of Asia turned away from me, including Phygelus and Ermogenes.

It is amazing how Christians completely miss this verse, or completely ignore it! Don't you think that is a pretty important verse? The founder of Christianity isn't Jesus at all, it's Paul!

Pharisee Shaul preached the good news, some walked away, they stopped following like they did with Yeshua. Many people only followed Moses because they saw him perform miracles. This is nothing new, very common jewish or torah history. It is very difficult to persuade people to always continue in the doctrine they have been taught. For some reason, men may change course or direction to avoid persecution from the authorities. It is not easy to get everyone to agree all the time.

 

[Digout]

How much faith in the truth must a person receive before it is declared that they have received the gospel preached to them? The woman at the well received the news that the long awaited Messiah is here and to her that was the "gospel" of the Kingdom. IT means many things to many people, but for the most part, knowing that God of Love came to earth in the flesh to re-introduce hope of salvation through Him is what people can grasp as the "gospel of the Kingdom".

How much Paul knew?

 

[ContraMundum]

A perfectly valid opinion, too. However, if the gospel of the Kingdom is so well known (as it should be) then why all the confusion? This is supposed to be a central tenant of Christianity, and so many of them know so little about it.

I'm not convinced that Christians don't know what the Gospel of the Kingdom is. OTOH I would have no trouble agreeing that many don't know what your understanding of it is. The Gospel of the Kingdom is a very big topic- it's not one point or even a few. It's many things, all ultimately agreeing and pointing to God's grace and authority. So you may be right about the Gospel of the Kingdom, but so will others be.

Do you have a link, please? I would be interested in reading about that. I've never seen it brought up here before. Thank you.

I don't really know how to dig that stuff up on CF, and I don't have a lot of time. Suffice to say that the Paul thing has been done to death.

 

[visionary]

How much Paul knew?

I don't think Paul is the bench mark.

 

[BukiRob]

No. In the sense that the such thinking leads to "replacement theology" A gentile is grafted in and in that sense they are "chosen" by G-d. But Israel was, is and will be G-d Chosen People

 

[Truthfrees]

No. In the sense that the such thinking leads to "replacement theology" A gentile is grafted in and in that sense they are "chosen" by G-d. But Israel was, is and will be G-d Chosen People

"From the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]" - Romans 11:28-29 AMP

 

[BukiRob]

"From the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]" - Romans 11:28-29 AMP

Again, in the sense that we are chosen to have the chance to respond to his calling yes.... but in the sense that believers replace Israel absolutely no. I completely reject replacement theology

 

[Truthfrees]

Again, in the sense that we are chosen to have the chance to respond to his calling yes.... but in the sense that believers replace Israel absolutely no. I completely reject replacement theology

As do I.

The scripture I quoted is about Israel. Grafted in Christians can claim it as a promise for themselves too, but it's specifically saying Israel remains the LORD'S chosen people.

There's no way to misinterpret it. It's too direct to twist.

Anyone who believes in replacement theology won't be able to explain away Romans 11:28-29.

 

[BukiRob]

As do I.

The scripture I quoted is about Israel. Grafted in Christians can claim it as a promise for themselves too, but it's specifically saying Israel remains the LORD'S chosen people.

There's no way to misinterpret it. It's too direct to twist.

Anyone who believes in replacement theology won't be able to explain away Romans 11:28-29.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

DaveW-Ohev,

I have run into a situation here that will keep me busy for quite awhile. Here is a link on The Eighteen Measures of Shammai to get you started until I have time to post more on this subject. It's something I threw together in .pdf form, from an outside web source. Enjoy!

Shalom, DaveW-Ohev

I had forgotten all about providing additional links for you on the 18 measures of Shammai. So, here they are. Please bear in mind that I do not completely agree with everything on these websites, nor do I wish to enter into debate concerning said website, and the material found there. Thank you for your patience!

The Eighteen Measures of Shammai Study Links

1) The Jewish Carpenter
2) What you never knew about the Pharisees
3) What you never knew about the New Testament’s view of the Law
4) Rambam
5) Article on Shabbat 9a-15b

When you are finished reading those, I'll be more than happy to give you additional links. Just ask, my friend.