Are children born sinless?

[DerSchweik]

I would feel better if God is left to decide on His own instead of coming up with theories based on extrapolation and speculation!

Friend, I don't think that response was necessary. You asked the question; he provided an answer. He wasn't deciding anything for God; nor was he preventing God from deciding anything - neither of which, if one thinks about it, is possible anyway.

I think his response was reasonable - and he openly admitted he didn't know the answer, that he was just voicing a possibility.

Another possibility he didn't mention was that culturally, the idea of killing off all the relatives of a family, for example, was done to prevent any of those relatives from taking vengeance later on. This has been a practice that is well documented throughout human history, whether done for religious reasons or other reasons (e.g. political, where a host of examples exist where some regime takes control and kills off all opponents to the regime, and etc.).

We do know that God was very clear to His people not to intermarry with the peoples of the lands they were going to occupy. There are numerous biblical references here so I'll leave that to the reader(s) to find on their own. One of the reasons for that was that they not become a snare to them spiritually.

Finally, the question "If children are not accountable, why did God in the OT times, asked the people of Israel to kill the children of the conquered nations?" doesn't necessarily deal with "accountability" as we were discussing it either. That God chooses to end someone's life, or allow someone's life to be ended does not necessarily mean that such an action implies eternal judgment - which is the context of "accountability" as we were discussing it. That someone dies, whether accidentally, whether of natural causes, or whether at the hand of another - or even as an act of God's will - does not mean that their death is an act of eternal judgment, let alone one of eternal damnation.

 

[Digout]

Friend, I don't think that response was necessary. You asked the question; he provided an answer. He wasn't deciding anything for God; nor was he preventing God from deciding anything - neither of which, if one thinks about it, is possible anyway.

I think his response was reasonable - and he openly admitted he didn't know the answer, that he was just voicing a possibility.

Another possibility he didn't mention was that culturally, the idea of killing off all the relatives of a family, for example, was done to prevent any of those relatives from taking vengeance later on. This has been a practice that is well documented throughout human history, whether done for religious reasons or other reasons (e.g. political, where a host of examples exist where some regime takes control and kills off all opponents to the regime, and etc.).

We do know that God was very clear to His people not to intermarry with the peoples of the lands they were going to occupy. There are numerous biblical references here so I'll leave that to the reader(s) to find on their own. One of the reasons for that was that they not become a snare to them spiritually.

Finally, the question "If children are not accountable, why did God in the OT times, asked the people of Israel to kill the children of the conquered nations?" doesn't necessarily deal with "accountability" as we were discussing it either. That God chooses to end someone's life, or allow someone's life to be ended does not necessarily mean that such an action implies eternal judgment - which is the context of "accountability" as we were discussing it. That someone dies, whether accidentally, whether of natural causes, or whether at the hand of another - or even as an act of God's will - does not mean that their death is an act of eternal judgment, let alone one of eternal damnation.

I agree somewhat on many points you have raised. I hope he doesn't take my remark as offensive.

 

[rick357]

Part of the reason for this question comes from a misunderstanding of the fall. The church at large has accepted the idea of original sin though it is not found in Scripture. actually the scripture States the child shall not stand for the sins of the father.... Adam sinned through disobediance of a command. this sin brought death into him . The Sin is the seed death is the plant this death was passed to his children. as Paul explains this is why death reigned from Adam to Moses. so until a child disobey a command to do good they have no sin

 

[Digout]

Part of the reason for this question comes from a misunderstanding of the fall. The church at large has accepted the idea of original sin though it is not found in Scripture. actually the scripture States the child shall not stand for the sins of the father.... Adam sinned through disobediance of a command. this sin brought death into him . The Sin is the seed death is the plant this death was passed to his children. as Paul explains this is why death reigned from Adam to Moses. so until a child disobey a command to do good they have no sin

That is an assumption! Some of these verses prove otherwise:

Psalms 51
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Job 14:
4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!


Job 15:14 "What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Ephesians 2: 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[rick357]

That is an assumption! Some of these verses prove otherwise:

Psalms 51
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Job 14:
4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one!

Job 15:14 "What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Ephesians 2: 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

It is not assumption to say the child.does not stand for the sins of the Father that is scripture
As to the rest of what I've said before I quote the scripture let me say that the death passed into a child makes a surety that when a command comes they will sin for they will be slaves to sin by reason of the death in them...my only point is untill the plant produces the fruit the fruit is not accounted to it...now to the scripture
Romans 5: 12-14 wherefor as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed apon all for that all have sinned for untill the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is no law nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression...
so where is my assumption...as to these other verses being born with death reigning in you is no more pure and innocent than the child of a slave would be free just because as yet the master can not command it...

 

[Digout]

rick357[/B];66126029]

It is not assumption to say the child.does not stand for the sins of the Father that is scripture

I don’t think so:

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Numbers 14: 33 'Your sons shall be shepherds for forty years in the wilderness, and they will suffer for your unfaithfulness, until your corpses lie in the wilderness.

As to the rest of what I've said before I quote the scripture let me say that the death passed into a child makes a surety that when a command comes they will sin for they will be slaves to sin by reason of the death in them...my only point is untill the plant produces the fruit the fruit is not accounted to it

Death of a child because of inherited sinful nature, and disease and birth defect may be for the same reason.

Fruit is subsequent cultivation by a believing person for salvation, and it is nothing to do with born-sinful nature of man.

...now to the scripture
Romans 5: 12-14 wherefor as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed apon all for that all have sinned for untill the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is no law nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adams transgression...
so where is my assumption...as to these other verses being born with death reigning in you is no more pure and innocent than the child of a slave would be free just because as yet the master can not command it...

If doesn’t prove that child is born sinless. In that case there cannot be infant deaths!

 

[rick357]

You miss both my point and Pauls in that death reigned from Adam to Moses not having sin imputed does not stop the death just as the law does not cause sin but it reveals the bondage of sin in us death reigned death does not mean life. Do you think Im saying every man from Adam to Moses was saved...not in the least. We are all born dead by nature this is what I inherited from Adam not his sin. Truly this death I inherit makes my only option to sin because their is no life in me. If I repent of the dead works in me and trust in what God has provided he gives.me.life.
In the resurrection at the end a child that died as a baby will God say you owe payment for Adams sin....so where does that leave us...I dont know...this I know the Lord of all will do right... And if we are to know then we can not reach a correct answer when our foundation was not correct...my post was for clarity of the direction to seek an answer not an answer in itself

 

[Digout]

You miss both my point and Pauls in that death reigned from Adam to Moses not having sin imputed does not stop the death just as the law does not cause sin but it reveals the bondage of sin in us death reigned death does not mean life. Do you think Im saying every man from Adam to Moses was saved...not in the least. We are all born dead by nature this is what I inherited from Adam not his sin. Truly this death I inherit makes my only option to sin because their is no life in me. If I repent of the dead works in me and trust in what God has provided he gives.me.life.
In the resurrection at the end a child that died as a baby will God say you owe payment for Adams sin....so where does that leave us...I dont know...this I know the Lord of all will do right... And if we are to know then we can not reach a correct answer when our foundation was not correct...my post was for clarity of the direction to seek an answer not an answer in itself

All inherited death from Adam and also his attitude of disobedience to God's command. A child will have no ability and strength to show off that. It doesn't mean it is sinless. What God does to a child that dies, is up to Him to decide. We can't speculate on that.

 

[rick357]

All inherited death from Adam and also his attitude of disobedience to God's command. A child will have no ability and strength to show off that. It doesn't mean it is sinless. What God does to a child that dies, is up to Him to decide. We can't speculate on that.

The child is sinless in the fact that he has not violated a command but still dead in the fact that he was born in said condition. As to how God rules on such a matter while I am sure it is in scripture I do not have a understanding so I am left with no more than the knowledge that the judge of all the earth will do right.

 

[Digout]

The child is sinless in the fact that he has not violated a command but still dead in the fact that he was born in said condition. As to how God rules on such a matter while I am sure it is in scripture I do not have a understanding so I am left with no more than the knowledge that the judge of all the earth will do right.

Romans 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Flesh of a child is obviously sinful. Violating the command will only confirm that condition subsequently.

 

[mikedsjr]

Question: Church of Christ, like the spin off from Mormonism?

 

[Hanane]

Interesting post

 

[gzusfrk]

As a member of Church of Christ not all believe that. The Word says flesh is sinful, babys are born of the flesh, precious yes, sinless I dont think so. But hey I dont no everything

 

[EdwinWillers]

Question: Church of Christ, like the spin off from Mormonism?

Uh, no. The churches of Christ have nothing in common with Mormonism; and Mormonism has nothing in common with the restoration movement.

 

[Saul Hudson]

Yes a child is born sinless. You can't sin unless you know right from wrong and choose to do wrong. Original sin theory was made up with a lot of other doctrines by the Romans and is found no where in the Bible. Children probably have sufficient knowledge to be taught the commandments of God and choose to follow them or not anywhere between the ages of 7 to 10, I would say. They start to gain understanding then.

 

[bottledwater]

The earth was cursed, and that includes everything that comes out of it. Including children. We are all children in God's eyes. We are all children of the devil, until we are saved by grace. In which time we become the children of God.
The bible says that there are none that are good. No not one.
What does that tell you?
We died thru Adams sin, and we are born again(made alive, regenerated) thru Christ Jesus, Who is the second Adam, and paid for the all of the sins of the world
And yes actual, or natural sin is very real, and biblical. Anybody that tells you different is a liar

 

[johnpaul7779]

Yes, children who die before the age of accountability go to heaven. Before they know right from wrong they are blameless. I've heard this several times but I don't think it's laid out as such in the Holy Bible but I believe it's been revealed since.

 

[greatdivide46]

I don't think it really matters what one's view of original sin is. According to Romans 5:12-19 whatever the whole of humanity got, or would have gotten, from Adam's sin is completely done away with, cancelled out, and negated by the atoning work of grace accomplished by Christ on the cross. Therefore, since that is true, children are born in original grace rather than original sin, since that sin has been cancelled by the atonement of Christ.

 

[TheSeabass]

I'll not address the church of Christ stance.

Sin:
transgression of the law
whatever is not of faith is sin
to know to do good and not do it, it is sin

An infant is innocent of all this. But in time he is more than likely demonstrate his fallen nature by exhibiting these defects.

We are not born with guilt of sin. We are born with deficiences, depravities that reveal themselves in thoughtful and visible sin. It is this we recognize, repent of, and desire God to replace at conversion - new birth.

The fact John said sin is transgression of the law makes the man made idea of Original Sin impossible. What law of God has a new born transgressed that makes that new born a sinner/transgressor? None (Romans 9:11) Since there is no such thing as a 'sin gene' nor is sin spread like a disease, nor is sin an idea that is passed from one person to another Original Sin is not biblically possible.