Are children born sinless?

[Digout]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

 

[OldStudent]

I'll not address the church of Christ stance.

Sin:
transgression of the law
whatever is not of faith is sin
to know to do good and not do it, it is sin

An infant is innocent of all this. But in time he is more than likely demonstrate his fallen nature by exhibiting these defects.

We are not born with guilt of sin. We are born with deficiences, depravities that reveal themselves in thoughtful and visible sin. It is this we recognize, repent of, and desire God to replace at conversion - new birth.

 

[Digout]

I'll not address the church of Christ stance.

Sin:
transgression of the law
whatever is not of faith is sin
to know to do good and not do it, it is sin

An infant is innocent of all this. But in time he is more than likely demonstrate his fallen nature by exhibiting these defects.

We are not born with guilt of sin. We are born with deficiences, depravities that reveal themselves in thoughtful and visible sin. It is this we recognize, repent of, and desire God to replace at conversion - new birth.

A child will not have a new birth; therefore, born with inherited sinful nature!

 

[OldStudent]

A child will not have a new birth; therefore, born with inherited sinful nature!

You got it.
But we may be on sumewhat different pages. Maybe there is room for splitting some hairs. For some original sin means born guilty. Guilt is not imputed (except when our guilt was charged to Jesus); it is personal experience. Born broken (with sinful nature) seems to be the more fitting expression. The experience, history, record of sin follows. Hence, my earlier post titled "Original depravity."

 

[DerSchweik]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

Respectfully, I think you understand incorrectly. I know of no one, nor have I ever heard of anyone in a church of Christ teaching that children are born sinless.

The bible is very clear that they are NOT born sinless:
"There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.” Rom 3:10ff
and,
"there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." Rom 3:21b
and,
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" Rom 5:12

A child will not have a new birth; therefore, born with inherited sinful nature!

Well, I'm not sure how either statement follows there, but it is correct that children are not born of the Spirit, born anew. They are born in Adam, as we are all born in Adam and inherit Adam's sinful nature.

The question is, "when does God IMPUTE sin on a person?" (c.f. Rom 5:13). In other words, does God judge newborns, babies, children as sinners worthy of eternal damnation?

There are two approaches to answering this question in my mind:
1) We could take the stance that children ARE sinners worthy of eternal damnation; but then we have to ask ourselves, "how can they be saved?" We know what it takes for an adult to be saved - regardless one's soteriological stance we all agree to certain basics, that the individual must hear, believe, repent, and confess Christ, at a minimum. How does a child - how CAN a child do any of that? Can a newborn believe in Christ? No, of course not.

2) We could take the stance then that children ARE born in sin (a fact to which I think we all agree - verses cited above), but ask the question as OldStudent addressed it, "when does God impute their sin to an individual?"

This question was actually addressed from a different angle in another thread here recently. I refer you to this passage in Isaiah:

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken." (Isa 7:15f).

There is the notion of an "age of accountability" - an age when an individual becomes accountable for his sinfulness, when, as Isaiah put it we "know enough to refuse evil and choose good." It is at that point that we all, to a person, choose evil. We can't help it, it's our Adamic nature to choose evil. At that point God imputes our sin and holds us accountable for it. Are we "sinners" before this? Yes. Thing is, we didn't know any better before; we hadn't developed and matured to the point we *could* know. A newborn cannot profess their faith in Christ; they cannot even articulate words, let alone understand them for months.

What did Jesus say of children? “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Luke 18:16

Given what we know about children, from being newborns, infants, toddlers, kindergartners, etc. we know at least this: that children need time to develop mentally, physically, emotionally, and rationally. It would, imho, be an egregious injustice were God to condemn children because they couldn't believe in His Son, who died for them.

Personally, I believe children who die, be they newborns, infants, toddlers... whatever... are embraced and secured into eternal life immediately by our gracious and loving Lord and God - who gave His Son to die on the cross for us who DO know better, for us who CAN respond to His gospel, for us whom He can impute personal responsibility for our sins.

 

[Digout]

Respectfully, I think you understand incorrectly. I know of no one, nor have I ever heard of anyone in a church of Christ teaching that children are born sinless.

I have read that in one of the books published by them!

Personally, I believe children who die, be they newborns, infants, toddlers... whatever... are embraced and secured into eternal life immediately by our gracious and loving Lord and God - who gave His Son to die on the cross for us who DO know better, for us who CAN respond to His gospel, for us whom He can impute personal responsibility for our sins.

God is the judge!

 

[Abramsailor]

Respectfully, I think you understand incorrectly. I know of no one, nor have I ever heard of anyone in a church of Christ teaching that children are born sinless.

I have read that in one of the books published by them!

I have attended a number of Churches of Christ over the years, and I have found a number of CoC members that hold the position as stated by the OP “children are born sinless.” However I do not see this as a point of contention as DerSchweik insightfully referred to Isa 7:14-16 which voids the argument that children are held accountable regardless.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken." (Isa 7:15f).

Another similar quote can be found in Deuteronomy which may lead us to the same conclusion.

Deut 1:37-40
37 Because of you the Lord became angry with me also and said, “You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. 40 But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.” (NKJV)

 

[Digout]

I have attended a number of Churches of Christ over the years, and I have found a number of CoC members that hold the position as stated by the OP “children are born sinless.” However I do not see this as a point of contention as DerSchweik insightfully referred to Isa 7:14-16 which voids the argument that children are held accountable regardless.



Another similar quote can be found in Deuteronomy which may lead us to the same conclusion.

Deut 1:37-40
37 Because of you the Lord became angry with me also and said, “You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. 40 But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.” (NKJV)

Both the verses quoted do not validate that children are born sinless and secure salvation!

 

[Abramsailor]

Both the verses quoted do not validate that children are born sinless and secure salvation!

I did not say that these versus mean that "children are born sinless", I said these verses mean that children are not held accountable. I also made a remark saying there should be NO CONTENTION between people who believe children are born sinless or not, because either way children are not held accountable.

 

[DerSchweik]

Respectfully, I think you understand incorrectly. I know of no one, nor have I ever heard of anyone in a church of Christ teaching that children are born sinless.

I have read that in one of the books published by them!

That may be; but the churches of Christ are a loosely affiliated group of autonomous churches with no central authority or "official" cofC doctrine/creed. If someone wrote a book in which they assert that children are born sinless, 1) that doesn't mean it's cofC doctrine, and 2) I'd have to disagree with them - and for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

God is the judge!

Yes, He is.

 

[DerSchweik]

I have attended a number of Churches of Christ over the years, and I have found a number of CoC members that hold the position as stated by the OP “children are born sinless.” However I do not see this as a point of contention as DerSchweik insightfully referred to Isa 7:14-16 which voids the argument that children are held accountable regardless.

Thank you.

I have attended churches of Christ all my Christian life (well, save for a couple of years where I couldn't), and I've never personally run into anyone who believes that; but I suppose there could be people or churches who do.

Another similar quote can be found in Deuteronomy which may lead us to the same conclusion.

Deut 1:37-40
37 Because of you the Lord became angry with me also and said, “You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. 40 But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.” (NKJV)

Hey, thanks for that. Read that passage literally scores of times and never noticed that particular reference in it.

 

[DerSchweik]

Both the verses quoted do not validate that children are born sinless and secure salvation!

No, they don't. Nor are they cited to assert that. Nor was that assertion made.

They say that there is a time in a child's life before which they do not know the difference between right and wrong, and a time after which they do.

And that's all they say.

 

[Digout]

I did not say that these versus mean that "children are born sinless", I said these verses mean that children are not held accountable. I also made a remark saying there should be NO CONTENTION between people who believe children are born sinless or not, because either way children are not held accountable.

Accountable by whom? God will decide. Accountability, I think, is different from inherent nature.

 

[Abramsailor]

Accountable by whom? God will decide. Accountability, I think, is different from inherent nature.

Accountable to God. I suppose what I'm getting at is: even if children have a sinful “inherent nature” they will not be held accountable (for the actions of their sinful “inherent nature&#8221, because they do not know “right from wrong”, and do not know how to choose between “good and bad”.

The other option would mean that children who don't know any better and act sinfully are condemned if they die as a child; save the denominations that feel they should practice infant baptism. I personally do not prescribe to infant/child baptism, I do not believe it makes any kind of impact.

 

[Digout]

Accountable to God. I suppose what I'm getting at is: even if children have a sinful “inherent nature” they will not be held accountable (for the actions of their sinful “inherent nature”), because they do not know “right from wrong”, and do not know how to choose between “good and bad”.

The other option would mean that children who don't know any better and act sinfully are condemned if they die as a child; save the denominations that feel they should practice infant baptism. I personally do not prescribe to infant/child baptism, I do not believe it makes any kind of impact.

However, why women and children belonging to other nations were asked to be eliminated may remain as a question!

 

[Abramsailor]

However, why women and children belonging to other nations were asked to be eliminated may remain as a question!

I'm sorry, but I do not understand your statement.

 

[Digout]

I'm sorry, but I do not understand your statement.

If children are not accountable, why did God in the OT times, asked the people of Israel to kill the children of the conquered nations?

 

[Abramsailor]

If children are not accountable, why did God in the OT times, asked the people of Israel to kill the children of the conquered nations?

That is a valid question that I do not have a complete answer for. There are two general lines of thinking that come to mind here that I am aware of. One due to the fact that if the children were not killed they would grow up practicing evil religions as their parents had and would likely wish to take vengeance upon Isrealites for killing the parents. Another line of thought is that some of the races that Israel was to conquer were from a line of demons/fallen angels themselves.

I honestly have had reservations about this topic in the past myself. I do not know if either of these two suggestions are correct, or if I'm even missing a third option. Regardless, I might not understand why God “commands/does/allows” certain things but God knows the bigger picture (Isa 55:9; 1 Cor 1:25).

I would post some links that go further into detail about these topics but do not have enough posts to share links on this sight yet.

I am sorry I do not have a clearer answer, maybe someone else may be able to to shed better light on the subject than me. And I will admit I could be mistaken, but from my point of view children are not held accountable (Isa 7:14-16; Deut 1:37-40). And this is the current position I hold due to the best of my knowledge/research at this time. I will look further into the issue and if I can find a way to extrapolate further about these topics I will be sure to post any such findings here.

 

[Digout]

That is a valid question that I do not have a complete answer for. There are two general lines of thinking that come to mind here that I am aware of. One due to the fact that if the children were not killed they would grow up practicing evil religions as their parents had and would likely wish to take vengeance upon Isrealites for killing the parents. Another line of thought is that some of the races that Israel was to conquer were from a line of demons/fallen angels themselves.

I honestly have had reservations about this topic in the past myself. I do not know if either of these two suggestions are correct, or if I'm even missing a third option. Regardless, I might not understand why God “commands/does/allows” certain things but God knows the bigger picture (Isa 55:9; 1 Cor 1:25).

I would post some links that go further into detail about these topics but do not have enough posts to share links on this sight yet.

I am sorry I do not have a clearer answer, maybe someone else may be able to to shed better light on the subject than me. And I will admit I could be mistaken, but from my point of view children are not held accountable (Isa 7:14-16; Deut 1:37-40). And this is the current position I hold due to the best of my knowledge/research at this time. I will look further into the issue and if I can find a way to extrapolate further about these topics I will be sure to post any such findings here.

I would feel better if God is left to decide on His own instead of coming up with theories based on extrapolation and speculation!

 

[Abramsailor]

I would feel better if God is left to decide on His own instead of coming up with theories based on extrapolation and speculation!

God is deciding his own. I'm not deciding anything for God. The replies I gave were only of some possibilities and did not claim them to be doctrine. I do not know everything. I honestly don't know why God said for children to be slain. I thought I said as much in my last post. I'm only working with the information I have available to me and trying to come to the best conclusion I can. The fact that we both have come to different conclusions doesn't mean I'm "deciding for God about anything". I could just as easily say the same about you and your views. All I did was try to answer your questions from my point of view.