Are children born sinless?

[Digout]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

 

[alex2165]

I browsed some places on this site and I stumble on your question concerning innocence of the children, on which unfortunately nobody replied.

The information below reflects some of the aspects on the subject of the innocence of the children, which I posted some time earlier on the unorthodox forum.

So the point is this, that indeed all children born innocent due to the lack of maturity and their process of thought, but then they about 4, they start really to show their personality and character, and exactly from such point in life they usually take their course for good or for bad, by absorbing the world that surrounds them, with all its good and bad things.

This means that as soon children can recognize good and bad, their already lost their innocence just like Adam and Eve. Before their disobedience not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they have been both completely innocent people, but as soon as they ate the fruit and start knowing good and evil, then their innocence gone away.

The information below actually was related to the subject of Hell and the children, but I think it would be OK to know a little bit more concerning entire issue of children.

Psalm 127.3
3.Children are gift of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward."

Ezekiel 18.4
4.All souls are Mine, the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

When GOD takes souls of the children he does it for a reason. Death comes to children as well to adults in many different forms and ways.

When children got sick it is not because GOD made them sick, and when children born deformed, or handicapped, it is not because of GOD, but because of us who polluted our own environment, food, water, and air, and these cause all bunch of illnesses and diseases in our children and birth defects, because we altered and disrupted the process of birth established by GOD by our pollutions.

But in some occasions GOD takes children purposely, such occasion occurred during destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and during the conquest of Canaan by Joshua, and in some other instances when entire cities have to be wipe out from the face of the Earth, with all living things in them, including children.

Job 1.21
21.And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."

Isaiah 55.8-9
8.'My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways', declares the Lord.
9.'As the heavens are higher than the Earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Innocent children do not end up in Hell, they like all godly adult will inherit Kingdom of GOD, which Jesus mentioned about saying, “Be innocent like children, because the Kingdom of GOD is theirs’”

GOD also knows what will become of the children when they grew up, and He makes His decision about them even before their birth, or right after their birth, like it happen with the newborn son of Jeroboam, first king of separated Israel. About his newborn son, Ahijah the prophet said following words:

1Kings 14.12-13
12.”Now you arise, go to your house. When your feet enter the city the child will die.
13.And all Israel shall morn for him and bury him, he alone of Jeroboam's family shall come to the grave, because in him something good was found toward the Lord, GOD of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam.

Psalm 139.16
16.Your eyes have seen my unformed substance, and in Your Book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when yet there was not one of them."

Jeremiah 1.4-5
4.Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5.'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you, I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.'

So again, innocent children go to Heaven of GOD, and in their suffering of sickness and death they reflect Jesus Christ Himself, Who was also innocent in all His ways, and also suffered in many different ways being completely innocent, and had been taken to Heaven by His Father, just like some of the children.

We all have to suffer, because the Son of GOD while being innocent, also suffered for us and for our children. Without suffering, and without the effort to find and to reach to GOD, no one can enter the Kingdom of GOD.

Psalm 116.15
15.Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His godly ones.

But far not all children are innocent.​

2Kings 2.23-24
23.Then he (Elisha) went up from there to Bethel (Ephraim), and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up you baldhead, go up you baldhead!"
24.When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

Are some children also end up in Hell?” I would say “Yes”, because some children are really bad from the very beginning, and I seen them quite a lot in my life. Even if they only 6 or higher, they already shown some devilish tendencies and despicable behavior, just like some of the adults.

Just recently, may be you heard the latest news, 12 year old boy took a gun and started shooting in school. I also remember case when two boys took a little kid, led him away and when murdered him for no reason. I also remember another instance, it was a while ago in Israel, when a group of Arab’s children saw two little Jewish boys playing on the empty field which was between Arab and Jewish settlements, and they beat them to death. And numerous cases of those who threw stones at passing cars, injuring and even killing people inside.


Ecclesiastes 7.29
29.See, this alone I found that GOD made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes.

Ezekiel 18.23.32
23.'Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked?', declares the Lord GOD, 'Rather than that he should turn from his ways and live.

32.'I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies', declares the Lord GOD, 'Therefore, repent and live.'

Ezekiel 33.11
11.'Say to them, 'As I live! Declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die? O house of Israel?

Jeremiah 48.10
10."Cursed be the one who does the Lord's work negligently, and curse be the one who restrains his sword from blood."

1Samuel 6.6
6.The Lord kills and makes alive, He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

 

[Digout]

I browsed some places on this site and I stumble on your question concerning innocence of the children, on which unfortunately nobody replied.

The information below reflects some of the aspects on the subject of the innocence of the children, which I posted some time earlier on the unorthodox forum.

So the point is this, that indeed all children born innocent due to the lack of maturity and their process of thought, but then they about 4, they start really to show their personality and character, and exactly from such point in life they usually take their course for good or for bad, by absorbing the world that surrounds them, with all its good and bad things.

This means that as soon children can recognize good and bad, their already lost their innocence just like Adam and Eve. Before their disobedience not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they have been both completely innocent people, but as soon as they ate the fruit and start knowing good and evil, then their innocence gone away.

The information below actually was related to the subject of Hell and the children, but I think it would be OK to know a little bit more concerning entire issue of children.

Psalm 127.3
3.Children are gift of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward."

Ezekiel 18.4
4.All souls are Mine, the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

When GOD takes souls of the children he does it for a reason. Death comes to children as well to adults in many different forms and ways.

When children got sick it is not because GOD made them sick, and when children born deformed, or handicapped, it is not because of GOD, but because of us who polluted our own environment, food, water, and air, and these cause all bunch of illnesses and diseases in our children and birth defects, because we altered and disrupted the process of birth established by GOD by our pollutions.

But in some occasions GOD takes children purposely, such occasion occurred during destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and during the conquest of Canaan by Joshua, and in some other instances when entire cities have to be wipe out from the face of the Earth, with all living things in them, including children.

Job 1.21
21.And he said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord."

Isaiah 55.8-9
8.'My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways', declares the Lord.
9.'As the heavens are higher than the Earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

Innocent children do not end up in Hell, they like all godly adult will inherit Kingdom of GOD, which Jesus mentioned about saying, “Be innocent like children, because the Kingdom of GOD is theirs’”

GOD also knows what will become of the children when they grew up, and He makes His decision about them even before their birth, or right after their birth, like it happen with the newborn son of Jeroboam, first king of separated Israel. About his newborn son, Ahijah the prophet said following words:

1Kings 14.12-13
12.”Now you arise, go to your house. When your feet enter the city the child will die.
13.And all Israel shall morn for him and bury him, he alone of Jeroboam's family shall come to the grave, because in him something good was found toward the Lord, GOD of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam.

Psalm 139.16
16.Your eyes have seen my unformed substance, and in Your Book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when yet there was not one of them."

Jeremiah 1.4-5
4.Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5.'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you, I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.'

So again, innocent children go to Heaven of GOD, and in their suffering of sickness and death they reflect Jesus Christ Himself, Who was also innocent in all His ways, and also suffered in many different ways being completely innocent, and had been taken to Heaven by His Father, just like some of the children.

We all have to suffer, because the Son of GOD while being innocent, also suffered for us and for our children. Without suffering, and without the effort to find and to reach to GOD, no one can enter the Kingdom of GOD.

Psalm 116.15
15.Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His godly ones.

But far not all children are innocent.​

2Kings 2.23-24
23.Then he (Elisha) went up from there to Bethel (Ephraim), and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him, and said to him, "Go up you baldhead, go up you baldhead!"
24.When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

Are some children also end up in Hell?” I would say “Yes”, because some children are really bad from the very beginning, and I seen them quite a lot in my life. Even if they only 6 or higher, they already shown some devilish tendencies and despicable behavior, just like some of the adults.

Just recently, may be you heard the latest news, 12 year old boy took a gun and started shooting in school. I also remember case when two boys took a little kid, led him away and when murdered him for no reason. I also remember another instance, it was a while ago in Israel, when a group of Arab’s children saw two little Jewish boys playing on the empty field which was between Arab and Jewish settlements, and they beat them to death. And numerous cases of those who threw stones at passing cars, injuring and even killing people inside.


Ecclesiastes 7.29
29.See, this alone I found that GOD made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes.

Ezekiel 18.23.32
23.'Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked?', declares the Lord GOD, 'Rather than that he should turn from his ways and live.

32.'I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies', declares the Lord GOD, 'Therefore, repent and live.'

Ezekiel 33.11
11.'Say to them, 'As I live! Declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die? O house of Israel?

Jeremiah 48.10
10."Cursed be the one who does the Lord's work negligently, and curse be the one who restrains his sword from blood."

1Samuel 6.6
6.The Lord kills and makes alive, He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

The children may be innocent, but they may not be sinless. Sinfulness is inherited from Adam and Eve.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

all mankind was put under the curse of sin because of one man's sin. it is written.

children of believing parent(s) are sanctified by their parent(s) faith. it is written.

there's no indication solid that children of unbelieving parents, no matter what church or country or wealth or ethnicity, are even sanctified. Scripture gives a different, and always true, indication that everyone is born dead in their sin and trespasses. it is written.

gentiles were once separate from God and without hope in the world. it is written.
(all gentiles, without regard to age)

still,at times, one or two, a few, here and there, sought the Creator, and found Him. it is written.

all that is written is true. God is not man, that He should lie. it is written.
(do not start thinking about different translations etc. it is without benefit at this point. the only way to know truth, to know Jesus, is if Yhwh reveals to you. there is no exception. there is no amount of study or knowledge you can acquire to find God.)

if you seek Yhwh, the only one true God, the Creator, you will find Him. it is written.

if you love Yhwh, you will always do what He says. it is written. (you might make mistakes, ("a sin that is not unto death"), it is written).

if you love Yhwh, you will frequently listen to Him, pray constantly, think on His Word steadily all day, rejoice full of joy and peace and righteousness like a trusting little child. it is written.

 

[alex2165]

So, question is, “How we can save children?”
How we can save our own children and the children of others before they turn bad?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

trust Yhwh totally. "train up a child in the way he should go" (pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray --- talk with Yhwh every day, roll everything, every thought, every worry, every joy, every good, every care, EVERYTHING, EVERY ONE - EVERY PERSON... roll into HIS CARE)


from > http://www.wangcf.org.au/daily-bread-content/noah-daniel-job-an-example-of-faith-towards-god.html>>

"“So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Romans 14:12
“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.”Ezekiel 14:20
​

Noah, Daniel and Job were three men of renown concerning their faith and relationship with God. They could tell others, show others, lead others, be an example to others and love others, but they could not decide for them nor could they do it for them. They could not stand up for someone else’s identity or accountability. They could only save themselves through their own response of faith. Every one of us is accountable to God for our own actions and responses. We cannot blame anyone else."

 

[alex2165]

You made very good point Yeshuasalvejeff.
Indeed, we cannot save our children but only ourselves, and wise versa.

Yes, prayer and good introduction of the word of GOD may save some of the children. But approach to children I think should be different than approach to adults. Children are very immature in their mentality, intelligence, and logic.

But it seems we do not have any other choice. So you right, children have to be taught in the Word of GOD from the very beginning, and then we shall hope for the best.

 

[JesusMartyr]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Digout]

(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Edouard]

Question: How does an infant sin when it is born from its mother's womb? Jer 1:1
God created them male and female in the likeness of His image (Genesis) - did God stop doing this? Is not God's creation always perfect? If God's creation is perfect - then how is an infant who is born into a world of sin. Already commit a sin? Can an infant speak? Can an infant disobey God? Can an infant Blasphemy the Holy Spirit?

When it talks about the children reaping what the parents do. Do they not "learn" their behavior from their parents? Is it not hard to break away from what your parents consider to be true.

My question is that every child is different. For example - there are 9 & 10 yrs olds who have sex and commit crimes ect.. they have learned this from their environment. To them it is how they live; but it is sinful.

My son - knows nothing of the world in this manner - but does know that when he disobeys us he has sinned. He knows that it is not ok to lie/steal/cheat ect.. he also sins. The difference between the two scenarios is nothing both are sin. Because they know the difference. They understand the consequences.

If my son never loved God. But the first did. I would mourn for my son. vice versa.
(keep in mind I am only using this as an example - yes have seen this in reality).

So again - does an infant made in the likeness of God's image - commit sin by being born - doing nothing?

 

[Digout]

Question: How does an infant sin when it is born from its mother's womb? Jer 1:1
God created them male and female in the likeness of His image (Genesis) - did God stop doing this? Is not God's creation always perfect? If God's creation is perfect - then how is an infant who is born into a world of sin. Already commit a sin? Can an infant speak? Can an infant disobey God? Can an infant Blasphemy the Holy Spirit?

When it talks about the children reaping what the parents do. Do they not "learn" their behavior from their parents? Is it not hard to break away from what your parents consider to be true.

My question is that every child is different. For example - there are 9 & 10 yrs olds who have sex and commit crimes ect.. they have learned this from their environment. To them it is how they live; but it is sinful.

My son - knows nothing of the world in this manner - but does know that when he disobeys us he has sinned. He knows that it is not ok to lie/steal/cheat ect.. he also sins. The difference between the two scenarios is nothing both are sin. Because they know the difference. They understand the consequences.

If my son never loved God. But the first did. I would mourn for my son. vice versa.
(keep in mind I am only using this as an example - yes have seen this in reality).

So again - does an infant made in the likeness of God's image - commit sin by being born - doing nothing?

Though man was created as an image of God, he fell from grace resulting in built-in sinful trait! You see even just born babies afflicted with deadly diseases or physical deformities for no fault of theirs!

 

[actionsub]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

Where to start?

First off, this is a UNITED Church of Christ forum. The United Church of Christ and the "church of Christ" movement are two totally different entities. You might want to pose your question in the "No Creed But Christ-Restoration Movement" section, as this is where "church of Christ" issues would be discussed.

In general, the United Church of Christ's theology stems from various Reformed streams, borrowing heavily from the thinking of Martin Luther and John Calvin. As such, our sacramental theology presupposes original sin, and that children are not born in a state of innocence.

 

[Digout]

Where to start?

First off, this is a UNITED Church of Christ forum. The United Church of Christ and the "church of Christ" movement are two totally different entities. You might want to pose your question in the "No Creed But Christ-Restoration Movement" section, as this is where "church of Christ" issues would be discussed.

In general, the United Church of Christ's theology stems from various Reformed streams, borrowing heavily from the thinking of Martin Luther and John Calvin. As such, our sacramental theology presupposes original sin, and that children are not born in a state of innocence.

Thanks for the clarification. I have posted that in that Forum.

 

[peterandrewj]

Can a new born baby be without sin and yet be unclean, if born to unbelieving parents? Absolutely, because of the corruption in the flesh.

Although it has not transgressed the law, and sin is not imputed, death still reigns over it because of Adam's transgression. It still needs Jesus to enter into life.

They do not automatically go to heaven if they die.

 

[justhere1]

I think children in the womb are sinless. Looking at Jeremiah 20, he wished his mother's womb was his grave so I would be great with him.

 

[Abel Gkiouzelis]

Yes, the children are born with the origin sin, which extinguishes with the Holy Baptism.

 

[hedrick]

First, I’m answering because I don’t think there are any actual UCC people currently active here.

It’s difficult to make clear statements about what a Church like the UCC believes. The UCC is historically Reformed, and of course the Reformed tradition definitely believes in it. The idea is that as a result of the Fall, we are all corrupted. We can only be saved by Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. However the UCC is at the very liberal end of Reformed theology. They don't always hold traditional Reformed beliefs.

However recent UCC documents don’t mention original sin. I did a search for mentions by UCC people. Most of the mentions rejected it. The UCC tends to think that God created everyone worthy of love. Of course none of us is able to be good enough to merit salvation. That we all need God's grace. However the kind of radical corruption involved in the doctrine original sin doesn’t seem consistent with recent UCC statements. Several UCC writers said that it isn’t taught in Scripture, but is deduced using reasoning that they don’t think is valid.

Getting beyond UCC beliefs to the broader Reformed tradition:

Note that this issue of when infants are responsible for sin may not be as much to the point as you think. The Reformed idea is that sin is as much a disposition as a specific act. The problem with infants is that while they may not have committed any sin for which they are fully responsible, their nature is still corrupt. That corruption makes them opposed to God, before they actually do anything responsibly. (This is traditional Reformed theology. I’m not specifically proposing it.)

Most Reformed people have taught that infants are saved. But they are not saved because they’re innocent. They’re saved because God forgives them and accepts them. That is, it’s due to God’s grace, and not something that they deserve. If they were treated purely as they deserve they’d be rejected. The Reformed writers who say this believe they have Scriptural support for it.

 

[hedrick]

I’d like to suggest that there is something to the doctrine of original sin, but also something to the UCC belief that God loves everyone.

I’ve been unable to find the place, but at some point in the Institutes, Calvin says that despite our corruption from the Fall, God still sees himself in us, and decides to save us. It seems to me that Christianity needs to maintain a proper balance. Yes, we are flawed, and that flaw can result in terrible damage, to ourselves and others. No one is free from it. The line between saint and sinner goes down the middle of all of us. But God is committed to us, as his children. He sees his image in us, even though it is distorted. And he wants to restore it. That’s Christ’s mission.

If this account is right, we have to be honest about the flaw. Without that honesty, we’re liable to construct utopias that will turn into dystopias. But it’s just as important to recognize God’s image in everyone. We are called by Christ to see that image in everyone, and to join him in bringing the image to the fore, and minimizing the results of the flaw.

While this doesn’t exactly contradict the idea of original sin, I don’t think this way of looking at it as the same as what is normally associated with the concept.

 

[Shibolet]

I understand that the church of Christ believes that children are born sinless. Are they right on this? What age a child becomes sinful according to them?

Yes, they are. Children are indeed born sinless. Only after they reach the age of liability, they become responsible for their wrongdoings. That age is 13 for the boys and 12 for the girls. I think the difference resides on the age of maturity as girls mature faster than boys. Hence boys celebrate "BarMitzvah" at 13 and girls "Bat Mitzvah" at 12. Do we have any Biblical evidence for this fact? Yes, Ecclesiastes 7:29.

 

[Shibolet]

First, I’m answering because I don’t think there are any actual UCC people currently active here.

It’s difficult to make clear statements about what a Church like the UCC believes. The UCC is historically Reformed, and of course the Reformed tradition definitely believes in it. The idea is that as a result of the Fall, we are all corrupted. We can only be saved by Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. However the UCC is at the very liberal end of Reformed theology. They don't always hold traditional Reformed beliefs.

Hedrick, you have said above that "as a result of the Fall, we are all corrupted." IMHO, that's not true and, rather a contradiction to the concept that children are born sinless. Therefore, immune of the charge of corruption.