Are Catholic Sacraments/Mysteries Valid?

[Athanasias]

I had heard recently that some Orthodox Christians do not consider catholic sacraments to be valid. This may not be what every orthodox teach but just a few. But I was not sure. I certainly will not take it personally or even argue it but just curiously do Orthodox Christians view Catholic Sacraments as invalid? In other words if I became Orthodox would I have to be rebaptized and re-chrismated? Do they see the eucharist of Catholics as just mere bread or the substantial body and blood of Christ?

Catholic officially teach that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are valid because they hold valid Bishops with apostolic succession. So if a Orthodox person becomes Catholic they just make a creedal statment of faith as they are already received the sacraments validly. Just curious what they thought of us?

 

[All4Christ]

I had heard recently that some Orthodox Christians do not consider catholic sacraments to be valid. This may not be what every orthodox teach but just a few. But I was not sure. I certainly will not take it personally or even argue it but just curiously do Orthodox Christians view Catholic Sacraments as invalid? In other words if I became Orthodox would I have to be rebaptized and re-chrismated? Do they see the eucharist of Catholics as just mere bread or the substantial body and blood of Christ?

Catholic officially teach that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are valid because they hold valid Bishops with apostolic succession. So if a Orthodox person becomes Catholic they just make a creedal statment of faith as they are already received the sacraments validly. Just curious what they thought of us?

You likely would be chrismated (not baptized again), though ultimately that decision is from the bishop.

 

[Athanasias]

You likely would be chrismated (not baptized again), though ultimately that decision is from the bishop.

Thank you for this answer. Just curiously why rechristmated but not rebaptized? Are some Catholic sacraments valid to EO and some not?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I had heard recently that some Orthodox Christians do not consider catholic sacraments to be valid. This may not be what every orthodox teach but just a few. But I was not sure. I certainly will not take it personally or even argue it but just curiously do Orthodox Christians view Catholic Sacraments as invalid? In other words if I became Orthodox would I have to be rebaptized and re-chrismated? Do they see the eucharist of Catholics as just mere bread or the substantial body and blood of Christ?

Catholic officially teach that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are valid because they hold valid Bishops with apostolic succession. So if a Orthodox person becomes Catholic they just make a creedal statment of faith as they are already received the sacraments validly. Just curious what they thought of us?

They would say that it depends. Lots of them would say that your baptism was nothing. But others would say it's ok. Which is crazy because it means the Orthodox have people running around inside of Orthodoxy as former Catholics or former Protestants and some would accept while others would reject their baptisms. They should figure out some objective standard instead of 'it depends'. Catholics have an objective standard, which even if sometimes complex, is never at the fiat of any particular bishop or priest.

 

[Not David]

I had heard recently that some Orthodox Christians do not consider catholic sacraments to be valid. This may not be what every orthodox teach but just a few. But I was not sure. I certainly will not take it personally or even argue it but just curiously do Orthodox Christians view Catholic Sacraments as invalid? In other words if I became Orthodox would I have to be rebaptized and re-chrismated? Do they see the eucharist of Catholics as just mere bread or the substantial body and blood of Christ?

Catholic officially teach that all the sacraments of the Orthodox Church are valid because they hold valid Bishops with apostolic succession. So if a Orthodox person becomes Catholic they just make a creedal statment of faith as they are already received the sacraments validly. Just curious what they thought of us?

According to my catechism book:
"Asserted in the apolytikion of St Ignatius Theophorus, in order for someone to become successor of the throne of the Apostles, he must also share in their ways and teach the word of truth without error"

The Orthodox Church considers Roman Catholicism to be a heterodox body.

Regarding baptism, it is the norm to get baptized when you enter the Church, but you can enter through chrismation because of οἰκονομία (oikonomia).

 

[Not David]

They would say that it depends. Lots of them would say that your baptism was nothing. But others would say it's ok. Which is crazy because it means the Orthodox have people running around inside of Orthodoxy as former Catholics or former Protestants and some would accept while others would reject their baptisms. They should figure out some objective standard instead of 'it depends'. Catholics have an objective standard, which even if sometimes complex, is never at the fiat of any particular bishop or priest.

Except that Arians and other Christological heretics were received back in the Church through a confession or chrismation, while the Catholic Church baptizes non-Trinitarians.

 

[Athanasias]

According to my catechism book:
"Asserted in the apolytikion of St Ignatius Theophorus, in order for someone to become successor of the throne of the Apostles, he must also share in their ways and teach the word of truth without error"

The Orthodox Church considers Roman Catholicism to be a heterodox body.

Regarding baptism, it is the norm to get baptized when you enter the Church, but you can enter through chrismation because of οἰκονομία (oikonomia).

Thats fair enough and interesting. Thank you for the clarification. So is this the general consensus or official teaching of all orthodox Churches? Just curious I suppose then they believe our priest to be mere lay people and our Bishops to be lay people as well since ordination to Holy orders is a sacrament/mystery? Is this the case?

 

[Athanasias]

apparently this question has scared off everyone and they are afraid answer or dialog on it. I am not offended if you think we do not have valid sacraments. So be it. The Catholic Church does not believe Lutherans and Anglicans have valid sacraments(except baptism) So I get it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I would say that we really don't concern ourselves with judging outside the Orthodox Church. No offense is intended, but why should we?

Can God act outside of Orthodoxy? Of course He can ... we don't put him on a leash or in a box. Who are we to say how His grace is active?

As far as receiving/recognizing baptisms of those being received into Orthodoxy, that becomes our business. Generally those who have been baptized with a Trinitarian formula (and correct belief in the Holy Trinity) will not be re-baptized. "We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins." There is also wording for a conditional baptism if it is not known. It's not completely willy-nilly up to each bishop. But from what I've heard those with a Russian history tended to want to received through baptism - in the early centuries of the Church such controversies and irregularities existed and were in some flux at times so it's not without prescendent.

As far as needing to be Chrismated, my understanding of the Catholic confirmation is that it is incomplete compared to Chrismation. I don't think Chrismation exists outside of the Orthodox Church, so everyone being received would need this.

But the major answer is ... we don't spend a lot of time analyzing whether this or that outside of Orthodoxy is "valid" ... it's not our business. We trust everyone to God.

 

[All4Christ]

Except that Arians and other Christological heretics were received back in the Church through a confession or chrismation, while the Catholic Church baptizes non-Trinitarians.

Today we certainly baptize non-Trinitarians though. Many Arians were previously baptized Orthodox, so they couldn’t be rebaptized. The non-Trinitarians today are not baptized with a Trinitarian formula, hence require baptism.

 

[All4Christ]

apparently this question has scared off everyone and they are afraid answer or dialog on it. I am not offended if you think we do not have valid sacraments. So be it. The Catholic Church does not believe Lutherans and Anglicans have valid sacraments(except baptism) So I get it.

It’s been the middle of the night until now...

I’m still half asleep, so I can’t do it right now, but I will answer your question.

 

[All4Christ]

I would say that we really don't concern ourselves with judging outside the Orthodox Church. No offense is intended, but why should we?

Can God act outside of Orthodoxy? Of course He can ... we don't put him on a leash or in a box. Who are we to say how His grace is active?

As far as receiving/recognizing baptisms of those being received into Orthodoxy, that becomes our business. Generally those who have been baptized with a Trinitarian formula (and correct belief in the Holy Trinity) will not be re-baptized. "We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins." There is also wording for a conditional baptism if it is not known. It's not completely willy-nilly up to each bishop. But from what I've heard those with a Russian history tended to want to received through baptism - in the early centuries of the Church such controversies and irregularities existed and were in some flux at times so it's not without prescendent.

As far as needing to be Chrismated, my understanding of the Catholic confirmation is that it is incomplete compared to Chrismation. I don't think Chrismation exists outside of the Orthodox Church, so everyone being received would need this.

But the major answer is ... we don't spend a lot of time analyzing whether this or that outside of Orthodoxy is "valid" ... it's not our business. We trust everyone to God.

I think the only ones that can are Oriental Orthodox? I think they just have a confirmation of faith, confession for the incorrect beliefs, etc. I can’t confirm that though as I’m not seeing evidence on Google - that’s just what I remember. I think some young children (4 or 5 years old) of a Coptic family were allowed to convert without chrismation. They had their first confession and were permitted (I think) to be in communion with us (no longer being in communion with Oriental Orthodox though). I think it was different for their parents. Maybe that part is specific to areas that are more difficult to be Orthodox - here they are closer in communion?

But yes, this is exactly what I would have written if my mind was clearer

 

[Athanasias]

I think the only ones that can are Oriental Orthodox? I think they just have a confirmation of faith, confession for the incorrect beliefs, etc. I can’t confirm that though as I’m not seeing evidence on Google - that’s just what I remember. I think some young children (4 or 5 years old) of a Coptic family were allowed to convert without chrismation. They had their first confession and were permitted (I think) to be in communion with us (no longer being in communion with Oriental Orthodox though). I think it was different for their parents. Maybe that part is specific to areas that are more difficult to be Orthodox - here they are closer in communion?

But yes, this is exactly what I would have written if my mind was clearer

Thank you for your honesty. So to a Orthodox a Catholic Bishop is just a layman because holy orders is a sacrament and you would see that as invalid for us is this correct? I presume our eucharist would just be mere bread too is this correct? Just curious?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the only ones that can are Oriental Orthodox? I think they just have a confirmation of faith, confession for the incorrect beliefs, etc. I can’t confirm that though as I’m not seeing evidence on Google - that’s just what I remember. I think some young children (4 or 5 years old) of a Coptic family were allowed to convert without chrismation. They had their first confession and were permitted (I think) to be in communion with us (no longer being in communion with Oriental Orthodox though). I think it was different for their parents. Maybe that part is specific to areas that are more difficult to be Orthodox - here they are closer in communion?

But yes, this is exactly what I would have written if my mind was clearer

Haha I was wondering when I wrote it if OO weren't maybe Chrismated just as we are. We share so very much I would almost assume so.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for your honesty. So to a Orthodox a Catholic Bishop is just a layman because holy orders is a sacrament and you would see that as invalid for us is this correct? I presume our eucharist would just be mere bread too is this correct? Just curious?

I know it wasn't addressed to me but were you asking her personal opinion? That's almost the only valid question. The Church doesn't judge.

We say that we know where the grace of God is active. And we can't stamp approval on Sacraments outside of Orthodoxy to say that we KNOW they are valid. But it's not really our business if God acts through them or not. That's up to God. And I am thankful that He desires people to be saved rather than seeking to exclude.

If someone asked my personal opinion, I'd have to simply say "I don't know".

 

[Athanasias]

I know it wasn't addressed to me but were you asking her personal opinion? That's almost the only valid question. The Church doesn't judge.

We say that we know where the grace of God is active. And we can't stamp approval on Sacraments outside of Orthodoxy to say that we KNOW they are valid. But it's not really our business if God acts through them or not. That's up to God. And I am thankful that He desires people to be saved rather than seeking to exclude.

If someone asked my personal opinion, I'd have to simply say "I don't know".

Well the EO Church has to have an official position given that I was told they would rechrismate me. So at least that sacrament they assume is invalid in the Catholic Church. Am IO right? If so are there other ones they consider invalid like ordination and the Eucharist?

 

[All4Christ]

Well the EO Church has to have an official position given that I was told they would rechrismate me. So at least that sacrament they assume is invalid in the Catholic Church. Am IO right? If so are there other ones they consider invalid like ordination and the Eucharist?

Don’t you have confirmation, not chrismation?

 

[Athanasias]

Don’t you have confirmation, not chrismation?

Confirmation is the same as Christmation in the western Church. its the same sacrament. We are also Christmated with the oil(sacred Chrism). Difference is the age when its done but it does not have to be. This is why Eastern Catholics united to the Pope practice it at an early age and called it Chrismation in the west we call it confirmation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

In a sense, baptism almost seems not complete without Chrismation and receiving the Eucharist.

I stood with a young man today, so I have a new godson.

 

[Athanasias]

In a sense, baptism almost seems not complete without Chrismation and receiving the Eucharist.

I stood with a young man today, so I have a new godson.

Yes your right we teach the same thing. They are the sacraments of initiation and confirmation completes the baptismal graces. Eucharist also strengthen this and most fully united us to Christ in a mystical marital way.