Are bad things that happen to us part of "God's plan"?

[Not David]

When is it because of our own fault and when is it caused by God? I am curious for the Orthodox perspective.

 

[Jonaitis]

God uses all things, including our own faults for our good to his glory in order that we may be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). God not only knows our path (Ps. 1:6), but ordained our steps (Prov. 16:19; 16:19), and is personally acquainted with all the circumstances in our lives (Ps. 139:1-6).

Edit: you wanted an Orthodox position, I apologize. I hope what I said still remains helpful.

 

[Not David]

God uses all things, including our own faults for our good to his glory in order that we may be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). God not only knows our path (Ps. 1:6), but ordained our steps (Prov. 16:19; 16:19), and is personally acquainted with all the circumstances in our lives (Ps. 139:1-6).

Edit: you wanted an Orthodox position, I apologize. I hope what I said still remains helpful.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[BunkerBuster91]

Thinks are not falling apart they falling together that what my pastor say js

 

[Mark Quayle]

God uses all things, including our own faults for our good to his glory in order that we may be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). God not only knows our path (Ps. 1:6), but ordained our steps (Prov. 16:19; 16:19), and is personally acquainted with all the circumstances in our lives (Ps. 139:1-6).

Edit: you wanted an Orthodox position, I apologize. I hope what I said still remains helpful.

Orthodox, or at least, Orthodoxy, is not necessarily meant as one might think. It can be used to mean simply "foundational to Christianity" or "as relates to the Greek Orthodox Church".

 

[Jonaitis]

Orthodox, or at least, Orthodoxy, is not necessarily meant as one might think. It can be used to mean simply "foundational to Christianity" or "as relates to the Greek Orthodox Church".

I know, but since they call themselves 'orthodox' in their name I seem a little forced to call them that even if I don't consider them orthodox in their teaching (maybe to many of their ancient "fathers"). It is the same with the term 'catholic.' It doesn't bother me to say that I belong to the holy catholic faith, but if I said this indiscriminately people would think I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[derpytia]

nvm

 

[Not David]

I know, but since they call themselves 'orthodox' in their name I seem a little forced to call them that even if I don't consider them orthodox in their teaching (maybe to many of their ancient "fathers"). It is the same with the term 'catholic.' It doesn't bother me to say that I belong to the holy catholic faith, but if I said this indiscriminately people would think I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

I call Catholics by that name even though I consider the Orthodox Church to be the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
Also why you put quotations in fathers?

 

[Jonaitis]

I call Catholics by that name even though I consider the Orthodox Church to be the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
Also why you put quotations in fathers?

I don't consider every figure in church history to be among the fathers of the faith, just as I don't consider every individual named a 'saint' by Rome to be saints (though they use the term differently than us). I only recognize them that held forth and believed what I understand as the gospel to be among our fathers in the faith, and sure they may have not all preached it as precise as others.

 

[ArmyMatt]

boy howdy, it's always great to see the heterodox not only ignore the OP, but also the forum rules here and insult us.

When is it because of our own fault and when is it caused by God? I am curious for the Orthodox perspective.

it's both in a sense. bad things happen to us because God allows us to experience the end of our own bad choices, but always with our repentance in mind.

 

[All4Christ]

Orthodox, or at least, Orthodoxy, is not necessarily meant as one might think. It can be used to mean simply "foundational to Christianity" or "as relates to the Greek Orthodox Church".

I’m Orthodox (as in the Orthodox Church) but not Greek Orthodox. Greek Orthodox are only one part of the Orthodox Church.

Considering this is in the Eastern Orthodox sub-forum, Orthodox in this context means the Orthodox Church. (That said, I also believe the Orthodox in our name means true to correct foundational Christian beliefs - otherwise I wouldn’t be Orthodox).

 

[Petros2015]

Personally, when 'bad things happen' that are my fault and the result of my actions, this is natural consequence in God's world, reaping what I sow. If bad things happen that are not necessarily my fault (a car breaking down, a health issue), it reminds me that I am not Home, and all this will be left behind eventually, and my reliance is to be on God, even unto and past death. When bad things happen to others, it is my call to be present for them if I can.

'Bad Things' can often be growth experiences. A selfish man walks into the obstacle course of life and says 'this is the worst walk in the park I have ever seen!' and sits down in the mud. A marine walks into the obstacle course of life and says 'this is perfect, this will prepare me to be who I need to be, for when the real work begins'. I am born with one spirit, I seek God for another, a better one.

I also love the quote below from Kallistos.

The Orthodox Way Quotes by Kallistos Ware

“For the Orthodox tradition, then, Adam's original sin affects the human race in its entirety, and it has consequences both on the physical and the moral level: it, results not only in sickness and physical death, but in moral weakness and paralysis. But does it also imply an inherited guilt? Here Orthodoxy is more guarded. Original sin is not to be interpreted in juridical or quasi-biological terms, as if it were some physical 'taint' of guilt, transmitted through sexual intercourse. This picture, which normally passes for the Augustinian view, is unacceptable to Orthodoxy. The doctrine of original sin means rather that we are born into an environment where it is easy to do evil and hard to do good; easy to hurt others, and hard to heal their wounds; easy to arouse men's suspicions, and hard to win their trust. It means that we are each of us conditioned by the solidarity of the human race in its accumulated wrong-doing and wrong-thinking, and hence wrong-being. And to this accumulation of wrong we have ourselves added by our own deliberate acts of sin. The gulf grows wider and wider. It is here, in the solidarity of the human race, that we find an explanation for the apparent unjustness of the doctrine of original sin. Why, we ask, should the entire human race suffer because of Adam's fall? Why should all be punished because of one man's sin? The answer is that human beings, made in the image of the Trinitarian God, are interdependent and coinherent. No man is an island. We are 'members one of another'(Eph. 4:25), and so any action, performed by any member of the human race, inevitably affects all the other members. Even though we are not, in the strict sense, guilty of the sins of others, yet we are somehow always involved.”
― Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way

 

[~Anastasia~]

God uses all things, including our own faults for our good to his glory in order that we may be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). God not only knows our path (Ps. 1:6), but ordained our steps (Prov. 16:19; 16:19), and is personally acquainted with all the circumstances in our lives (Ps. 139:1-6).

Edit: you wanted an Orthodox position, I apologize. I hope what I said still remains helpful.

Your post is not so distinct from what we would say.

Certainly, God uses ALL things, even what happens to us as a result of our faults, or as the result of our own sinfulness or the sins of others, to bring us into the likeness of Christ for our salvation - if we cooperate with Him. We can of course respond wrongly to any situation.

God knows our path, certainly, He knows all things from before time. He does not however choose our sins and force us to do so, if that's what you meant. Maybe you didn't.

As far as glory - God IS glorious. Nothing we can do or not do takes away or adds to that. I'm always a little confused by an extreme position (not what you are saying but others I have heard) that goes so far as to say God intends evil or creates people in order to condemn them - for the sole purpose of somehow increasing or demonstrating or shoring up His own glory. I can't see how anyone can think that is glorious, but more importantly - God doesn't need any such thing to add to Himself, doesn't need to "prove" anything. When we see Him as He is, we will have no doubt of His glory.

But most importantly, yes, He does use all things - even bad things - for good out of love if we allow it. I've always thought the selling of Joseph into slavery, leading to the saving of the house of Jacob from famine, to be a good example. (Of course that led to slavery, which then led to Moses bringing Israel to the Promised Land, and so on ... )

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't consider every figure in church history to be among the fathers of the faith, just as I don't consider every individual named a 'saint' by Rome to be saints (though they use the term differently than us). I only recognize them that held forth and believed what I understand as the gospel to be among our fathers in the faith, and sure they may have not all preached it as precise as others.

We don't consider every figure in Church history to be among the Fathers either ... only those that consistently taught right doctrine. Some "famous" teachers from the early centuries taught one or more heretical doctrines and those teachings must be rejected.

We also don't recognize "Saints" canonized by Rome after they became "the Catholic Church" according to how they are now called, nor do we accept the same process.

But these are whole other discussions. Just wanted to reply for the sake of clarity. If nothing else, one never knows who might read the archives someday.

 

[~Anastasia~]

When is it because of our own fault and when is it caused by God? I am curious for the Orthodox perspective.

I hope you got your answer in there? Fr Matt made a good reply (as always).



I'm not sure bad things are "caused by" God (depending what bad things you mean) so much as mostly they are simply a result of living in a fallen world and the sins of us and others. God sometimes allows these things to happen, but will use them all for our salvation if we allow Him to. Sometimes I'm sure He also prevents other bad things that could have happened.

 

[All4Christ]

boy howdy, it's always great to see the heterodox not only ignore the OP, but also the forum rules here and insult us.



it's both in a sense. bad things happen to us because God allows us to experience the end of our own bad choices, but always with our repentance in mind.

Wouldn’t you say it isn’t always because of our bad choices (i.e. something bad happening to a child or an infant - or something like a car accident outside of a person’s control or some disease that is unrelated to a person’s decisions), but also out of corruption of this world from the sin of the fall? Isn’t it also allowed as medicine for us to grow closer to God and to overcome both our sins and the sin of this world? Jesus said that the blind man had no sight that they may see the glory of God, and that it was not due to his sins or the sins of his parents.

 

[All4Christ]

I was taught that there are multiple sources of suffering - such as those suffering in body of soul based on persecution from others, sickness and disease (which was introduced along with corruption and death in this world because of the fall), and because of both our own and the world’s sins. We can accept this in one of two ways: humility and using it as medicine to help us grow spiritually and to accept it as a means for our salvation - or to blame God.

We are taught that we will suffer trials and suffering if we follow God - and that He will help us bear our sorrows. Bad things happen to us - and God uses that as medicine for our salvation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wouldn’t you say it isn’t always because of our bad choices (i.e. something bad happening to a child or an infant - or something like a car accident outside of a person’s control or some disease that is unrelated to a person’s decisions), but also out of corruption of this world from the sin of the fall? Isn’t it also allowed as medicine for us to grow closer to God and to overcome both our sins and the sin of this world? Jesus said that the blind man had no sight that they may see the glory of God, and that it was not due to his sins or the sins of his parents.

yes, and yes all over. but the reason this world is fallen in the first place, is because of our sin.

 

[All4Christ]

yes, and yes all over. but the reason this world is fallen in the first place, is because of our sin.

True...but isn’t that sometimes our collective sin? For example, the Theotokos experienced suffering despite her holy life. Another example - an infant killed in the first days of life. It is also due to our sins as humanity, right? Sin is more than a specific action; it infects our entire being, bringing along that corruption, etc.

 

[ArmyMatt]

True...but isn’t that sometimes our collective sin? For example, the Theotokos experienced suffering despite her holy life. Another example - an infant killed in the first days of life. It is also due to our sins as humanity, right? Sin is more than a specific action; it infects our entire being, bringing along that corruption, etc.

yes, but the fact that it exists at all is because we chose to follow the enemy and not God.