1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Are Anglicans required to accept the 7th ecumenical council?

Discussion in 'Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican & Old Catholic' started by Noscentia, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

    128
    +98
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Republican
    So, I'm no expert as to the Anglican view on ecumenical councils. From what I understand, they at least accept the first four. So my question is two-fold: do Anglicans believe ecumenical councils to be infallible/inspired? And are Anglicans required to accept the 7th ecumenical council as also being infallible/inspired?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,187
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    The twenty-first of the 39 Articles states:

    "General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture."
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  3. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

    128
    +98
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Republican
    Thanks so much for your reply! If I might follow up with another: must all Anglicans accept the 39 Articles? And are the 39 Articles the only statements of required beliefs for Anglicans, or is there anything more than that?
     
  4. seeking.IAM

    seeking.IAM Episcopalian Supporter

    +4,157
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    Anglicans are not dogmatic. There is not much Anglicans "must" do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,187
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    No. The 39 Articles provide a framework to which the institution is committed, and within which it functions. (Mostly; that is at least the ideal). But while it's good if people are at least taught about them, lay Anglicans are free to personally disagree with them. As a priest I am required to assent to the Articles, which means that I do not go beyond the boundaries they set in my public ministry.

    Beyond that there are various statements and documents which have different weight - for example, resolutions at Lambeth conferences, or statements of the Anglican Consultative Council - but they are not generally considered to be "required beliefs."
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. Shane R

    Shane R Priest Supporter

    +875
    United States
    Anglican
    Widowed
    I think the usual approach would be, at least theoretically, to accept the canons of any of the general councils insofar as they are not repugnant to the meaning of Scripture. In truth, most people hardly know anything about the Seventh Ecumenical Council other than it upheld iconography. And one seldom hears of some of the disciplines, which constitute the majority of the canons of that Council, being taken seriously at the present.
     
  7. Arcangl86

    Arcangl86 Newbie

    +5,667
    Anglican
    Single
    US-Green
    It's also worth saying that not all provinces require the priests to assent to the Articles.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  8. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Historically, in its first few centuries, portions of the Church of England appear to have been somewhat iconoclastic. I recall one of the Homilies in the Book of Homilies had an iconoclastic theme, and there were tragic incidents of cultural vandalism involving the destruction of stained glass windows, gargoyles and grotesques and other decorations on at least one cathedral, and other churches of gothic provenance. There was also the destruction of the relics of St. Thomas Becket. That said, its not clear to me to what extent these acts were actually perpetrated by the Church of England, as opposed to Puritan malcontents, dissenters and roundheads during the English Civil War. It is obvious however that by the 19th century, the tide had changed, with surviving medieval iconography carefully preserved, along with the commissioning of exquisite new iconography during the Victorian and Edwardian eras in the Gothic Revival architecture that so beautifully accompanied the Romantic period in art, literature, sculpture and especially, classical music, and which also became for a time the prevailing style of ecclesiastical architecture in the West.

    Now, with Byzantine icons in the altar of Westminster Abbey, I find myself hard pressed to think of any other Protestant churches with iconographic and architectural splendor on a par with the Church of England (the Scandinavian Lutheran churches do come to mind, especially the gorgeous frescoes in some of the round churches in Sweden and Denmark; speaking of Denmark, I once visited the beautiful Anglican parish near Tivoli gardens, in 2001, which had a pair of lovely elderly Anglo-Danish ladies welcoming visitors; given that the Angles came from an area on the Danish-German frontier, and that much of England and parts of what is now Scotland, and I think the Diocese of Sodor and Man*, were later ruled by the Danes, I particularly loved that church). The Church of England also does a very good job in accommodating low church Protestants who might resent iconography, as there are plenty of beautiful parishes with plain windows and functional decoration, for example King’s Norton Church in Leicestershire, which has a particularly lovely exterior.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    * Being a railfan since childhood, and being from the Central Valley of California, which for most of the year is characterized by dry grass, except in the late winter and early spring, when we enjoyed green grass and golden poppies, my first introduction to the stunning beauty of British trains and the gorgeous green British countryside was a complete collection of Rev. W. Audrey’s railway stories, featuring such classics as Thomas the Tank Engine, James the Red Engine (who was beautiful but vainglorious), Gordon the Big Express Engine, Henry, who was seriously unreliable and kind of a jerk, and lovable Edward, who was in the first story he wrote, an old but reliable engine with admirable humility and maturity, as well as a thinly disguised version of the Ffestinog narrow gauge railway in Wales, and other related railways connecting to the main line on the fictional island of Sodor, which of course took its name from the Diocese of Sodor and Man, although in reality Sodor referred to the Outer Hebrides, which like Man were ruled at different times by the Norse and the Irish, being somewhat of a bone of contention, like Finland’s alternating Swedish and Russian domination.

    Rev. W. Audrey, who wrote the stories, was a lifelong Anglican priest, and the combination of beautiful artwork (which with its sleek, elegant and colorful British trains and emerald green hills looked quite alien to a valley boy accustomed to dusty Santa Fe and Southern Pacific freight trains punctuated on rare occasions by a boxy Amtrak regional train) and Christian moral lessons struck a chord with me. Its a pity that it has been commercialized beyond all recognition, with the miserable Shining Time Station on PBS and more recently a number of childrens’ films which look about as appealing as acute radiation poisoning.
     
  9. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

    128
    +98
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Republican
    I don't necessarily have a problem with images in general, but when skimming over the 7th ecumenical council these were some of the things I had issues with (note: the 'etc.' at the end of the lists means 'let them be anathema'):

    "(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, etc. "

    "Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images. "

    "Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images. "

    "(17) If anyone denies the profit of the invocation of Saints, etc."
     
  10. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,187
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Well, yes, that would be incompatible with some fairly fundamental Anglican beliefs.

    "The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."
     
  11. Noscentia

    Noscentia Member

    128
    +98
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Republican
    Thanks for everyone who responded, and God bless!
     
  12. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +4,577
    Canada
    Lutheran
    Married
    The Lutheran answer is to accept the 7th in so far as it does not conflict with Scripture. ;)
     
  13. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Whoops, thought I was in Traditional Theology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  14. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

    +17,187
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    A fact about which I take a dim view. I think it's deeply problematic to think we can just discard our most foundational doctrinal frameworks, especially when one province or area does so with no regard for their place in the wider life of the communion.

    I'd really have to beg to differ on that. Some high church places have openly ignored/flouted the Articles, but that doesn't mean the Articles weren't relevant. It means discipline was poor. (It's a particular bugbear of mine that here in Australia, where we do assent to the Articles on oath, we then find some parish priests doing things which the Articles would not permit; and bishops turning a blind eye. What's the point of taking an oath only to flagrantly, publicly, ignore it? Is our integrity worth so little?)
     
  15. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Whoops, thought I was in Traditional Theology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  16. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Whoops, thought I was in Traditional Theology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  17. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +4,577
    Canada
    Lutheran
    Married
    I think your observation is spot-on. While not rampant, our clergy assent to the unaltered Book of Concord, but there are a few who act as though they have never heard of it. You cite negligent Bishops; in our case it is Congregationalism, and the reluctance of our Synod Presidents/Bishops to oppose the Congregations. In some cases (close to home) congregations get cheezed-off, leave synod, and become "free Churches"; they call whatever Pastor that is either of like mind, or that they can bend to their defiant will. BTW, congregationalism generally sucks as a form of governance IMO; our Pastor runs up against this weekly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  18. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Whoops, thought I was in Traditional Theology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  19. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional, Liturgical, Wesleyan, Orthodox Supporter

    +3,167
    United States
    Generic Orthodox Christian
    Celibate
    Whoops, thought I was in Traditional Theology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  20. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

    +4,577
    Canada
    Lutheran
    Married
    Good points, but on a score sheet; I would take an informed dictatorship over a bunch of know-it-all laymen any day.
     
Loading...