Are angels the same as demons?

GoldenKingGaze

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Though some scholarly translations do not use the word "angel", the original Hebraic wording from where they are translated from is quite clear and it doesn't lose any of it's context that these verses are referring to angels.


Hebrews 1:5 does not apply to believers and angels, but applies exclusively to Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:5 quotes Psalms 2:7 as an official decree, meaning that this is a prophecy in regards to the coming Messiah. It is not specifically saying that angels are not sons of God, but that this particular verse in Hebrews when put into context is exclusively about Jesus who was appointed the "Son of God" (a title being equal to God) by his resurrection as stated in Romans 1:4.

When we read further we see mention that God is described as the father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9), and Hebrews 1:14 is rather clear that angels are indeed spirits, so it logically follows that angels are sons of God, but not thee Son of God as decreed by Psalms 2:7.


These are not meant to be taken as literal but as illustrations of what Ezekiel saw. Like John the Revelator saw great beasts, they were representations of world power systems and countries, and multitudes of peoples, even demonstrating the Son of Man through imagery that don't resemble our conservative understandings on the image of God. (Revelation 1:14-15) This style of exposition is seen throughout the Bible and the books of the OT prophets are no exception.


Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different creation accounts but are an explanation of the same creation account. Genesis 1 is talking broadly about what God did from day 1 to day 6, and Genesis 2 talks only about day 6 about an enclosed area called Eden, and what happened within it.
Wrote about it in detail a while back. Here's the Link: Genesis 1 & 2 | Christian Forums

So it was certainly a misinterpretation of scripture from Bible teachers that preach Genesis 1 and 2 as two separate creation accounts. A misleading doctrine that have lead some Christians astray to believe in the likes of Lilith and other unbiblical teachings.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. KJV

I think Ezekiel saw simply, not similtudes or allegories. Even in Revelation when John was seeing what was and not similtudes he saw men and "living creatures" worshiping God. In John and Daniel, there are exceptions from normal sight and normal sight to say they saw the actual. Dreams and vision may not be literal and some parts of the writings are literal amidst the creative and the latter may we so for the future to remain covered from those without the Spirit or wisdom.
 
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JacksBratt

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Genesis chapter 1 says the men and women filled the Earth, it does not then exactly mention them when it says God was pleased. But obviously God was not pleased with the descendants of Adam by the time they filled the Earth. The first man Adam, in my view was the first of our race, not the very first created male in God's image and likeness.
Genesis 1 tells us that He made man in His own image.
Genesis 1:26-27 King James Version (KJV)

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The bible separates all the other living creatures, and their creation, from man and the way he was created.

Genesis 2 tells us how He made man:

Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Genesis 2:20 tells us the Adam was alone.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:21-22 tells us how He made woman:


21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;


22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


For this reason, I see no reason to believe that there were ever any humans before Adam, as he was the first man and woman was made from his rib.

Check out Genesis 2:23 where Adam gives the reason why women are called women.


23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Genesis 1 tells us that He made man in His own image.
Genesis 1:26-27 King James Version (KJV)

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The bible separates all the other living creatures, and their creation, from man and the way he was created.

Genesis 2 tells us how He made man:

Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Genesis 2:20 tells us the Adam was alone.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:21-22 tells us how He made woman:


21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;


22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


For this reason, I see no reason to believe that there were ever any humans before Adam, as he was the first man and woman was made from his rib.

Check out Genesis 2:23 where Adam gives the reason why women are called women.


23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
What is your explanation for how it us that there were men and women in chapter 1, not just one couple?
 
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JacksBratt

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What is your explanation for how it us that there were men and women in chapter 1, not just one couple?
Here is a quick quote from Abraxos in post # 119.

This should help you out.

https://www.christianforums.com/bible/genesis/1/
Abraxos said:
Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different creation accounts but are an explanation of the same creation account. Genesis 1 is talking broadly about what God did from day 1 to day 6, and Genesis 2 talks only about day 6 about an enclosed area called Eden, and what happened within it.
Wrote about it in detail a while back. Here's the Link: Genesis 1 & 2 | Christian Forums

So it was certainly a misinterpretation of scripture from Bible teachers that preach Genesis 1 and 2 as two separate creation accounts. A misleading doctrine that have lead some Christians astray to believe in the likes of Lilith and other unbiblical teachings.
 
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JacksBratt

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You jumped in a chain of exchanges between myself and Sanoy. We were arguing about the truth of the Book of Enoch, that it was scripture because "It's quoted in scripture as scripture". If you want to claim ignorance to the discussion, then maybe you should not have jumped in.
My mistake.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Here is a quick quote from Abraxos in post # 119.

This should help you out.

Years ago when I was into trying to defend literal 6 day creation, I postulated the same argument that Abraxos puts forward. While that argument is possible, it is not without problems. Abraxos' longer explanation ignores certain phrases in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 and is not entirely accurate about the usage of words in them.

For example, He says that chapter 1 and 2 use different words for the vegetation that is created, because two is talking about cultivated plants where as 1 is talking about non-cultivated plants.

If you actually read both chapters you will find the following differences. Chapter 1 specifically mentions grass, herbs and fruit trees. Chapter 2 specifically mentions plants, herbs, and trees. The Hebrew word for herbs is exactly the same in both chapter and the Hebrew word for trees is exactly the same in both chapters.

The differences are that one mentions grass where the other mentions plants and that chapter 1 says fruit trees while chapter 2 says trees good for food.

Chapter 1 uses the descriptor plants that bear seed after their kind where as chapter 2 uses the descriptor plants of the field. Now, again you could argue that this makes a distinction between two different types of plants, but does it really? Don't all cultivated plants also bear seed after their kind? Doesn't that descriptor in fact cover all plant life? Likewise when we see plants of the field, is that actually a Hebrew idiom meaning cultivated plants? This is possible, but over the course of my Church life I've heard claims like this MANY times that have proven to be either out right false, or totally unfounded. I'd have to see some hard evidence for that.

Similar problems occur with the animal life and Abraxos' explanations for that. He claims that the Hebrew words are different in the two chapters when really they aren't.

The only difference that occurs is that Chapter 1 uses the word cattle and chapter 2 doesn't. While chapter two uses the phrase "of the field" but chapter 1 doesn't.

In all other cases, Beast, Fowl, Living Creature, are all exactly the same in both chapters.

The problem is worse here because chapter 1 explicitly says "every thing that creeps on the earth" and chapter 2 explicitly says "every living creature". It's pretty hard to argue that every thing that creeps on the earth doesn't include "livestock".
It is equally hard to argue that Chapter 2 "every living creature" doesn't include wild animals.


This is the kind of interpretation that is easy to see in the text if you already believe it or are looking specifically to justify something you already believe (known as eisigesis, or reading ideas into the text)
It is not obvious, however, that if you came to the text with no pre-conceived belief that you would actually get this idea out of it. Or, it's not clear that this is what the text was initially intended to convey (exegesis, getting ideas out of the text).

I think a lot of this kind of thing arises because people are trying to make Genesis speak about things it was never intended to speak about. They are trying to get out of it, something it wasn't meant to convey. Namely, scientific data and descriptions.

The tragedy of this is that people who get fixated on trying to prove this kind of stuff frequently miss the important stuff that Genesis was actually written to convey. They focus on details that ultimately have almost no importance and miss the stuff that actually matters.
 
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JacksBratt

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Years ago when I was into trying to defend literal 6 day creation, I postulated the same argument that Abraxos puts forward. While that argument is possible, it is not without problems. Abraxos' longer explanation ignores certain phrases in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 and is not entirely accurate about the usage of words in them.

For example, He says that chapter 1 and 2 use different words for the vegetation that is created, because two is talking about cultivated plants where as 1 is talking about non-cultivated plants.

If you actually read both chapters you will find the following differences. Chapter 1 specifically mentions grass, herbs and fruit trees. Chapter 2 specifically mentions plants, herbs, and trees. The Hebrew word for herbs is exactly the same in both chapter and the Hebrew word for trees is exactly the same in both chapters.

The differences are that one mentions grass where the other mentions plants and that chapter 1 says fruit trees while chapter 2 says trees good for food.

Chapter 1 uses the descriptor plants that bear seed after their kind where as chapter 2 uses the descriptor plants of the field. Now, again you could argue that this makes a distinction between two different types of plants, but does it really? Don't all cultivated plants also bear seed after their kind? Doesn't that descriptor in fact cover all plant life? Likewise when we see plants of the field, is that actually a Hebrew idiom meaning cultivated plants? This is possible, but over the course of my Church life I've heard claims like this MANY times that have proven to be either out right false, or totally unfounded. I'd have to see some hard evidence for that.

Similar problems occur with the animal life and Abraxos' explanations for that. He claims that the Hebrew words are different in the two chapters when really they aren't.

The only difference that occurs is that Chapter 1 uses the word cattle and chapter 2 doesn't. While chapter two uses the phrase "of the field" but chapter 1 doesn't.

In all other cases, Beast, Fowl, Living Creature, are all exactly the same in both chapters.

The problem is worse here because chapter 1 explicitly says "every thing that creeps on the earth" and chapter 2 explicitly says "every living creature". It's pretty hard to argue that every thing that creeps on the earth doesn't include "livestock".
It is equally hard to argue that Chapter 2 "every living creature" doesn't include wild animals.


This is the kind of interpretation that is easy to see in the text if you already believe it or are looking specifically to justify something you already believe (known as eisigesis, or reading ideas into the text)
It is not obvious, however, that if you came to the text with no pre-conceived belief that you would actually get this idea out of it. Or, it's not clear that this is what the text was initially intended to convey (exegesis, getting ideas out of the text).

I think a lot of this kind of thing arises because people are trying to make Genesis speak about things it was never intended to speak about. They are trying to get out of it, something it wasn't meant to convey. Namely, scientific data and descriptions.

The tragedy of this is that people who get fixated on trying to prove this kind of stuff frequently miss the important stuff that Genesis was actually written to convey. They focus on details that ultimately have almost no importance and miss the stuff that actually matters.
Thanks for that information. I don't know, by this post, but it seems like you no longer support the 6 day creation event.

I have a theory...

If taking the six days of creation, literally, were as important to their salvation as taking the events of Jesus life literally.... then they would all defend the six day creation view with their life.

Also, if taking the gospel message and all the miracles, death burial and resurrection of Christ, literally, were not necessary for salvation... everyone would consider it an allegory, parable or simple fabrication by the apostles.

You see, men of this earth, over time, have developed a disconnect with the awesome power of our creator. They have also diminished the power of the writen word and it's established foundation as solid truth.

These men, then, have observed things and devised alternate scenarios as to why things are the way they are. Many of these men have no belief in God or are solid atheists.

What then happens is Christians are exposed to these parallel explanations for certain events and occurrences and then doubt the living word of God.

They do this with creation and all the events that surround Genesis 6 and it's role in the history and future of the human race.

There is not one thing in the word of God, OT or NT that is not possible for God.
If the word of God is truth.. then it is all truth. If you want to cherry pick what you take as truth and what you cannot accept due to the "wisdom" of mere men... then I would be careful.

As for me.... Let God be true and every man a liar.

All it takes in scientific cases, is one simple little unseen, unknown or undiscovered fact and whole concepts can fall like a house of cards.....

I'll stick with what God said:

Luke 8:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

If I was a betting man... I'd wager that the "science" of the atheistic driven culture of this world..... is wrong.....


What say you?
 
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Jipsah

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Satan has one third of the angels that were created. God has two thirds. That means there are twice as many good angels as bad angels. Amazing how much havoc he still brings.
Which doesn't not particularly support the idea that the demons that our Lord chucked out of people were fallen angels.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Thanks for that information. I don't know, by this post, but it seems like you no longer support the 6 day creation event.

I have a theory...

If taking the six days of creation, literally, were as important to their salvation as taking the events of Jesus life literally.... then they would all defend the six day creation view with their life.

Also, if taking the gospel message and all the miracles, death burial and resurrection of Christ, literally, were not necessary for salvation... everyone would consider it an allegory, parable or simple fabrication by the apostles.

You see, men of this earth, over time, have developed a disconnect with the awesome power of our creator. They have also diminished the power of the writen word and it's established foundation as solid truth.

These men, then, have observed things and devised alternate scenarios as to why things are the way they are. Many of these men have no belief in God or are solid atheists.

What then happens is Christians are exposed to these parallel explanations for certain events and occurrences and then doubt the living word of God.

They do this with creation and all the events that surround Genesis 6 and it's role in the history and future of the human race.

There is not one thing in the word of God, OT or NT that is not possible for God.
If the word of God is truth.. then it is all truth. If you want to cherry pick what you take as truth and what you cannot accept due to the "wisdom" of mere men... then I would be careful.

As for me.... Let God be true and every man a liar.

All it takes in scientific cases, is one simple little unseen, unknown or undiscovered fact and whole concepts can fall like a house of cards.....

I'll stick with what God said:

Luke 8:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

If I was a betting man... I'd wager that the "science" of the atheistic driven culture of this world..... is wrong.....


What say you?

I'm not against believing that God created the world in six literal days. If someone believes that, I don't have problem with it and I don't feel any need to try and convince them otherwise.

I'm also not really opposed to people who don't believe that it was literally six days.

I can honestly say that I personally don't really have an opinion on whether it should be seen as literal in that sense or not. The reason I don't have an opinion on that is because, from my point of view, it is largely unimportant. If you believe it was 6 days, that changes nothing for the rest of biblical doctrine and theology. If you believe the 6 days are meant to be representative only, that really also doesn't necessarily change anything in the rest of biblical doctrine and theology.

I definitely do disagree with those who dismiss the text as "mere mythology". Even if the text is not meant to be literally factual, it is there for a reason and it says what it says for a reason.

I wasn't necessarily convinced one way or the other, I just stopped spending time thinking about it because it didn't change or impact anything else I believed from the bible.

I agree with you that modern minded people, including the vast majority of Christians tend to disregard the supernatural aspects of scripture unless they are absolutely forced to believe them, like Jesus' resurrection. Christian's can't deny that, but they will deny or ignore almost everything supernatural that they can.

That isn't the case for me. I don't have any problem with believing that God could create the world in 6 days. In fact, God could create the entire universe in the blink of an eye and to me that raises the question... if God could create the universe in the blink of an eye (which he can) then why do it in a process over six days?

My point with this question is not at all that this should cast doubt on the creation account... but it should be questions like this that guide our inquiry and understanding when we try to interpret the text. Whether the text is a literal historical description or not, God chose to tell the story this way. Why? The fact that God told the story this way conveys meaning. It is important. So why? Why did God create by process rather than simply doing everything at once? Why 7 days? What does that mean?

I reached a point in my own life where I was listening to a teacher talk about the meaning of some of these things and I suddenly realized that in all my study and debating defending the literal position, I had never once stopped to think about what the story actually meant. I suspect that may be true for a lot of people who have similar backgrounds to me.

If you had asked me why is the story this way, my only answer would have been "because that's the way it happened." But I came to realize that the factual details of how creation took place are unimportant in and of themselves. The real importance lies in what meaning those details convey to us about who the creator is, what does this tell us about God? Why did he create? What does it tell us about his purpose for the world and for us? What is the nature of the creation itself? How should we view and understand the world? What is our place in creation and what is our purpose? etc.

I also do have some disagreements with the common understandings that many "literalists" have regarding how scripture should be understood. I put literalist in quotes not to disrespect, but because in my experience I've never met anyone who actually takes everything in scripture literally, it's all a question of which parts you take literally and which parts you don't.

One of these deals with inspiration. Again I'll use myself as an example. I always believed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch under inspiration from God. To suggest that Moses didn't write it, or to suggest that maybe some sections of it weren't written by Moses or to suggest that what Moses wrote may have been edited later, or revised, or added to, all were synonymous with denying the inspiration of scripture.

I eventually came to understand that this really isn't the case and isn't a necessary view point. I absolutely believe that God inspired scripture. However, inspiration doesn't rest on whether God used Moses to do the writing, or whether Moses wrote some of it and then God used someone else latter to add to it, or to revise sections of it etc. Who wrote it, and whether it went through process of revision and addition does not change that God inspired it and everyone who contributed to it.

Similarly many Christians view Inspiration as almost like a kind of automatic writing, in which God dictated word for word what the human author should write. I don't think that is accurate. I don't think inspiration works that way. I think God chose Moses and gave him the truths, and the ideas, and the wisdom, and Moses wrote them down using his own mind, his own words, and his own historical context.

That is why in scripture we see that different writers had different writing styles, different cultural contexts, and they wrote in different genres of literature, like poetry, history, parable, etc.

Some people see those things as a threat to inspiration, but I don't think they are at all.

Another point, pertinent to Genesis is that modern people in particular have the idea that in order for a story to be true and valid, it must be factual. I don't think that is true. They think that if the events didn't literally happen exactly as described, then the whole story is a lie and worthless. I don't see that at all. Jesus himself spoke frequently in parables where he used fictional stories to relay spiritual truths. The preoccupation with fact is a distinctly modern scruple that ancient and medieval people really did not share. If you were to go to many of the ancient Christians and tell them "did you know Genesis 1 isn't factual, it didn't really happen that way." their response would likely have been "so what?" Even back then, before there was ever a debate about science, there were scripture scholars who discussed whether passages in the bible were meant to be literal or were meant to be non-literal stories that conveyed truths.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Which doesn't not particularly support the idea that the demons that our Lord chucked out of people were fallen angels.
I could argue multiple ways, but I can't tell what you are trying to argue here. "Doesn't not particularly support". So a qualified double negative starts your argument about what?
 
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JacksBratt

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I'm not against believing that God created the world in six literal days. If someone believes that, I don't have problem with it and I don't feel any need to try and convince them otherwise.

I'm also not really opposed to people who don't believe that it was literally six days.

I can honestly say that I personally don't really have an opinion on whether it should be seen as literal in that sense or not. The reason I don't have an opinion on that is because, from my point of view, it is largely unimportant. If you believe it was 6 days, that changes nothing for the rest of biblical doctrine and theology. If you believe the 6 days are meant to be representative only, that really also doesn't necessarily change anything in the rest of biblical doctrine and theology.

I definitely do disagree with those who dismiss the text as "mere mythology". Even if the text is not meant to be literally factual, it is there for a reason and it says what it says for a reason.

I wasn't necessarily convinced one way or the other, I just stopped spending time thinking about it because it didn't change or impact anything else I believed from the bible.

I agree with you that modern minded people, including the vast majority of Christians tend to disregard the supernatural aspects of scripture unless they are absolutely forced to believe them, like Jesus' resurrection. Christian's can't deny that, but they will deny or ignore almost everything supernatural that they can.

That isn't the case for me. I don't have any problem with believing that God could create the world in 6 days. In fact, God could create the entire universe in the blink of an eye and to me that raises the question... if God could create the universe in the blink of an eye (which he can) then why do it in a process over six days?

My point with this question is not at all that this should cast doubt on the creation account... but it should be questions like this that guide our inquiry and understanding when we try to interpret the text. Whether the text is a literal historical description or not, God chose to tell the story this way. Why? The fact that God told the story this way conveys meaning. It is important. So why? Why did God create by process rather than simply doing everything at once? Why 7 days? What does that mean?

I reached a point in my own life where I was listening to a teacher talk about the meaning of some of these things and I suddenly realized that in all my study and debating defending the literal position, I had never once stopped to think about what the story actually meant. I suspect that may be true for a lot of people who have similar backgrounds to me.

If you had asked me why is the story this way, my only answer would have been "because that's the way it happened." But I came to realize that the factual details of how creation took place are unimportant in and of themselves. The real importance lies in what meaning those details convey to us about who the creator is, what does this tell us about God? Why did he create? What does it tell us about his purpose for the world and for us? What is the nature of the creation itself? How should we view and understand the world? What is our place in creation and what is our purpose? etc.

I also do have some disagreements with the common understandings that many "literalists" have regarding how scripture should be understood. I put literalist in quotes not to disrespect, but because in my experience I've never met anyone who actually takes everything in scripture literally, it's all a question of which parts you take literally and which parts you don't.

One of these deals with inspiration. Again I'll use myself as an example. I always believed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch under inspiration from God. To suggest that Moses didn't write it, or to suggest that maybe some sections of it weren't written by Moses or to suggest that what Moses wrote may have been edited later, or revised, or added to, all were synonymous with denying the inspiration of scripture.

I eventually came to understand that this really isn't the case and isn't a necessary view point. I absolutely believe that God inspired scripture. However, inspiration doesn't rest on whether God used Moses to do the writing, or whether Moses wrote some of it and then God used someone else latter to add to it, or to revise sections of it etc. Who wrote it, and whether it went through process of revision and addition does not change that God inspired it and everyone who contributed to it.

Similarly many Christians view Inspiration as almost like a kind of automatic writing, in which God dictated word for word what the human author should write. I don't think that is accurate. I don't think inspiration works that way. I think God chose Moses and gave him the truths, and the ideas, and the wisdom, and Moses wrote them down using his own mind, his own words, and his own historical context.

That is why in scripture we see that different writers had different writing styles, different cultural contexts, and they wrote in different genres of literature, like poetry, history, parable, etc.

Some people see those things as a threat to inspiration, but I don't think they are at all.

Another point, pertinent to Genesis is that modern people in particular have the idea that in order for a story to be true and valid, it must be factual. I don't think that is true. They think that if the events didn't literally happen exactly as described, then the whole story is a lie and worthless. I don't see that at all. Jesus himself spoke frequently in parables where he used fictional stories to relay spiritual truths. The preoccupation with fact is a distinctly modern scruple that ancient and medieval people really did not share. If you were to go to many of the ancient Christians and tell them "did you know Genesis 1 isn't factual, it didn't really happen that way." their response would likely have been "so what?" Even back then, before there was ever a debate about science, there were scripture scholars who discussed whether passages in the bible were meant to be literal or were meant to be non-literal stories that conveyed truths.
Thanks for that informative and personal account of you views.
 
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Jipsah

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I could argue multiple ways, but I can't tell what you are trying to argue here. "Doesn't not particularly support". So a qualified double negative starts your argument about what?
OK, lemme clarify. There is no Biblical reason to assume that the demons our Lord threw out of those poor afflicted people were fallen angels. If they were, then they were pitiful remnants of angels, reduced to tormenting hapless people for no apparent reason except malice.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Thanks for that informative and personal account of you views.

If you are interested in a really supernatural view of the Old Testament, that is also backed up by really good linguistic and historical contextual scholarship I would recommend you look up Michael Heiser.

He has a few websites but there are also tons of videos of interviews and lectures by him on Youtube.

He is a loosely baptist style evangelical protestant. He is a scholar of ancient near eastern languages, and comparative religion who specializes in the ancient Israelite and Canaanite religions.

He deals extensively with the following topics
- The Divine Council (the fact that in the OT God has a kind of royal court with a council of advisers and administrators)
- The Genesis 6 incident with the sons of God and the daughters of men
- Two Powers in Heaven, the existence of the concept of a Godhead in the OT and in ancient Judaism. (the fact that the OT is clear that God is more than one person and the ancient Israelites clearly recognized this fact.

He gets into some really interesting stuff. All bible based. I personally don't agree with all his ideas but he is a good scholar and his work is really interesting.
 
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Abraxos

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Years ago when I was into trying to defend literal 6 day creation, I postulated the same argument that Abraxos puts forward. While that argument is possible, it is not without problems. Abraxos' longer explanation ignores certain phrases in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 and is not entirely accurate about the usage of words in them.

For example, He says that chapter 1 and 2 use different words for the vegetation that is created, because two is talking about cultivated plants where as 1 is talking about non-cultivated plants.

If you actually read both chapters you will find the following differences. Chapter 1 specifically mentions grass, herbs and fruit trees. Chapter 2 specifically mentions plants, herbs, and trees. The Hebrew word for herbs is exactly the same in both chapter and the Hebrew word for trees is exactly the same in both chapters.

The differences are that one mentions grass where the other mentions plants and that chapter 1 says fruit trees while chapter 2 says trees good for food.

Chapter 1 uses the descriptor plants that bear seed after their kind where as chapter 2 uses the descriptor plants of the field. Now, again you could argue that this makes a distinction between two different types of plants, but does it really? Don't all cultivated plants also bear seed after their kind? Doesn't that descriptor in fact cover all plant life? Likewise when we see plants of the field, is that actually a Hebrew idiom meaning cultivated plants? This is possible, but over the course of my Church life I've heard claims like this MANY times that have proven to be either out right false, or totally unfounded. I'd have to see some hard evidence for that.
Technically you were correct in regards to the plant life, that the specific Hebrew word for plants and vegetables, etc are more or less the same in Genesis 1 and 2. What was initially meant however, was that through the context in Genesis 2:5, these "plants of the field" are described as "cultivated plants." Genesis 1 certainly mentioned vegetations and fruits, yet the difference with Genesis 2, is that verse 5 is quite clear that these plants of the field need a man to cultivate them, hence the plants of the field are cultivated plants. Furthermore, 'of the field' can be translated as "cultivated field," and it only stands to reason that gardens contain plants that require cultivation. Verse 8 pretty much verifies that 'plants of the field' is referring to a garden and is cultivated by Adam later in verse 15.

You asked for hard evidence as to why they're cultivated plants yet Genesis 2:5 and the Hebrew meaning of the word "field" make it quite clear. Perhaps it was seemingly "outright false" or "totally unfounded" because not many churches considered the significance of the original Hebrew text and how it was used; and as a result, their fundamental hermeneutics lead to faulty conclusions.

Similar problems occur with the animal life and Abraxos' explanations for that. He claims that the Hebrew words are different in the two chapters when really they aren't.

The only difference that occurs is that Chapter 1 uses the word cattle and chapter 2 doesn't. While chapter two uses the phrase "of the field" but chapter 1 doesn't.

In all other cases, Beast, Fowl, Living Creature, are all exactly the same in both chapters.

The problem is worse here because chapter 1 explicitly says "every thing that creeps on the earth" and chapter 2 explicitly says "every living creature". It's pretty hard to argue that every thing that creeps on the earth doesn't include "livestock".
It is equally hard to argue that Chapter 2 "every living creature" doesn't include wild animals.
Though Genesis 2:20 was rather clear that it does refer to cattle (depending on the Bible version you use), the point really that you seemed to have overlooked was the context. To further reiterate, the field is in a specific location God named Eden; and in Eden God placed a garden there. Now "garden" in Hebrew can also mean an enclosure, or an enclosed field; this changed the context to be speaking about specific types of animals, and specific types of birds, and specific types of plants of the field/garden. For example "birds of enclosure" would come to mean "domesticated fowls." It could also be open to animals that are not particularly domesticated but are reliant on the enclosure, like ecosystem gardening and agriculture we see today.

This is the kind of interpretation that is easy to see in the text if you already believe it or are looking specifically to justify something you already believe (known as eisigesis, or reading ideas into the text)
It is not obvious, however, that if you came to the text with no pre-conceived belief that you would actually get this idea out of it. Or, it's not clear that this is what the text was initially intended to convey (exegesis, getting ideas out of the text).

I think a lot of this kind of thing arises because people are trying to make Genesis speak about things it was never intended to speak about. They are trying to get out of it, something it wasn't meant to convey. Namely, scientific data and descriptions.

The tragedy of this is that people who get fixated on trying to prove this kind of stuff frequently miss the important stuff that Genesis was actually written to convey. They focus on details that ultimately have almost no importance and miss the stuff that actually matters.
The key point was, that Genesis 1 was generally talking about the creation order from day 1 to day 6, and Genesis 2 was talking about only day 6 but in much more detail.

I assure you I do not have some ulterior motive... (?) I'm just pointing out what the Bible says despite admittedly being difficult to articulate it in a way that is easy to understand. Interesting opinion you have, though.
 
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JacksBratt

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If you are interested in a really supernatural view of the Old Testament, that is also backed up by really good linguistic and historical contextual scholarship I would recommend you look up Michael Heiser.

He has a few websites but there are also tons of videos of interviews and lectures by him on Youtube.

He is a loosely baptist style evangelical protestant. He is a scholar of ancient near eastern languages, and comparative religion who specializes in the ancient Israelite and Canaanite religions.

He deals extensively with the following topics
- The Divine Council (the fact that in the OT God has a kind of royal court with a council of advisers and administrators)
- The Genesis 6 incident with the sons of God and the daughters of men
- Two Powers in Heaven, the existence of the concept of a Godhead in the OT and in ancient Judaism. (the fact that the OT is clear that God is more than one person and the ancient Israelites clearly recognized this fact.

He gets into some really interesting stuff. All bible based. I personally don't agree with all his ideas but he is a good scholar and his work is really interesting.
Thanks for that information. I'll certainly look into this.
 
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BobRyan

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Technically you were correct in regards to the plant life, that the specific Hebrew word for plants and vegetables, etc are more or less the same in Genesis 1 and 2. What was initially meant however, was that through the context in Genesis 2:5, these "plants of the field" are described as "cultivated plants." Genesis 1 certainly mentioned vegetations and fruits, yet the difference with Genesis 2, is that verse 5 is quite clear that these plants of the field

Genesis 2 introduces the concept of "plants of the field" farming... weeding etc.

The fruits and nuts - of the earth in Genesis 1 are by contrast not brought about by farming but rather God put the fruit bearing trees there all over planet Earth at creation.

Genesis 2 says no rain and no farming. A mist/dew would come up from the ground overnight and water the Earth. So then like an aquifer tide I imagine.

Adam is tending the garden of vines and fruit bearing trees. But is not "farming" as would be done after the fall of man. In fact no rain even after the fall of man until the flood.
 
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BobRyan

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If you are interested in a really supernatural view of the Old Testament, that is also backed up by really good linguistic and historical contextual scholarship I would recommend you look up Michael Heiser.

He has a few websites but there are also tons of videos of interviews and lectures by him on Youtube.

He is a loosely baptist style evangelical protestant. He is a scholar of ancient near eastern languages, and comparative religion who specializes in the ancient Israelite and Canaanite religions.

He deals extensively with the following topics
- The Divine Council (the fact that in the OT God has a kind of royal court with a council of advisers and administrators)
- The Genesis 6 incident with the sons of God and the daughters of men
- Two Powers in Heaven, the existence of the concept of a Godhead in the OT and in ancient Judaism. (the fact that the OT is clear that God is more than one person and the ancient Israelites clearly recognized this fact.

He gets into some really interesting stuff. All bible based. I personally don't agree with all his ideas but he is a good scholar and his work is really interesting.

You are right he is interesting and he comes pretty close in the guesses he makes and uses some good Bible references to support some of it. And he gets the seance in 1 Samuel 28 horribly wrong.

He gets the definition of elohim wrong, though he is right that it is a term used of various (different kinds of) beings.

but no source comes as close to the explicit details on things like the councils in heaven as this one
The Story of Redemption - Table of Contents
Nothing but the Bible even comes close to this in terms of giving accurate details
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. KJV

Who was the fourth person? The Holy One, or Michael, or Gabriel?

Some angels look like people. They are servants. Head of the house until we come of age.
 
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sdowney717

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I agree, yet I wrestle with the concept of how the fallen angels were able to procreate... did God create angels who would not procreate (Matthew 22:30) with the physical attributes necessary for it? Why?
The clue is heavenly angels, who are holy elect angels of God do not marry or have offspring.
Fallen angels are not heavenly, they fell from heaven, rebel against God, so they are lawless and will do whatever they can to resist God and Christ.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

Genesis 3 mentions the seed of the serpent, God says 'your seed', which would be satan's offspring by way of Nephilim (fallen angels) who birthed those giants, who when they were killed since they were neither angel or human await the judgement yet are not yet in torments of hell. So they are disembodied spirits free to roam and cause trouble.

Matthew 8:28-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
Two Demon-Possessed Men Healed
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.
 
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food4thought

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The clue is heavenly angels, who are holy elect angels of God do not marry or have offspring.
Fallen angels are not heavenly, they fell from heaven, rebel against God, so they are lawless and will do whatever they can to resist God and Christ.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

Hi sdowney717. I understand what you are saying, but the problem still remains. The fallen angels were once, before they fell, angels in heaven, right? So whatever capabilities they have would have to be given them by God. So if they were not meant to reproduce when God created them, how did they gain this capability? Why would God give them the necessary physical attributes to do this? This is why I came up with my alternative theory.

Genesis 3 mentions the seed of the serpent, God says 'your seed', which would be satan's offspring by way of Nephilim (fallen angels) who birthed those giants, who when they were killed since they were neither angel or human await the judgement yet are not yet in torments of hell. So they are disembodied spirits free to roam and cause trouble.

Matthew 8:28-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
Two Demon-Possessed Men Healed
28 When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding.

I have no problem with the rest of this.

God bless;
Michael
 
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