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Featured Are angels the same as demons?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by mathinspiration, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Yes but Rev 12 IS sequential. The one third of stars simply don't stay with Satan, and Daniel implies they are enemies of satan because of how the little horn treats them. Satan wants his angels with him in heaven so he does not cast them to the Earth else he would have no angels to help him in the war in heaven.


    No it doesn't say that. It addresses the fallen angels in Gen 6 and what happened to them.

    Rev 12:9 proves not all fallen angels are in chains.
     
  2. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Passing one test does not mean you pass all the tests. Saying one true thing does not mean everything you say is true. Paul quoted secular texts, doesn't mean he wanted them to be part of scripture.
     
  3. Abraxos

    Abraxos 117

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    I don't think there are Biblical scriptures that support the notion that angels cannot mate with the daughters of men. In fact Genesis 6:2 was rather quite clear that they mated with women. A position you seem to agree with as you use 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 as a testament to the sin that these angels committed?

    Biblically speaking I would have assumed that our "greatest" ability was our choice to serve and love others as Jesus did before us, or perhaps that is a matter of preference. Also, isn't it God that can only bring forth a living soul?

    Anyway, just a few noticeable contradictions that question are angels and demons one of the same; Throughout the Bible we know angels can take the form of men without effort, (ex. Hebrews 13:2, Genesis 19); And we know Satan will take the form of a man at the appointed time in the last days. But demons cannot take the form of men, but only possess men willingly or unwillingly. How can angels be demons when demons cannot take the form of men?

    Jesus says that demons are restless spirits that wander the earth. (Matthew 12:43) The Bible also says that God chained up those angels that forfeited their inheritance and kept them in darkness.
    So there is seemingly another contradiction here: How can the angels be wandering the earth when the Bible says that God bound them up in chains and kept them in darkness?
     
  4. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Well if you think all of Revelation is sequential, then we have no hope. Do you think Eden in chapter 22 comes after the new earth of 21 or is just a retelling of the same new age?
    So I guess you didn't note ...
    And you don't acknowledge that Satan and his demons are already on earth.
    You think Satan is in heaven but still leading the fallen angels already on earth? You think that Satan has not sinned yet? You think Satan has some angels that have not sinned yet? You think Jesus has not come yet? You think Satan is not filled with fury and knows his time is short? You think Jesus did not defeat Satan yet? You think that Satan is not waging war against "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? Rev 12 is history.
     
  5. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    Now there was a day when The Sons Of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
    Job 1:6



    Again there was a day when The Sons Of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
    Job 2:1



    When the morning stars sang together,
 And All The Sons Of God shouted for joy?
    Job 38:7



    Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that The Sons Of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and They Took Wives For Themselves Of All Whom They Chose.
    Genesis 6:1-2


    And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, THEY SHALL MINGLE THEMSELVES WITH THE SEED OF MEN. But they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.
    Daniel 2:43


    "But As The Days Of Noah Were, so also will the coming of the Son Of Man be."
    Matthew 24:37
     
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  6. Abraxos

    Abraxos 117

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    Ah, yes indeed. "Sons of God" in the OT in Hebrew is "beneha’elohim", and in numerous passages as Jude1:3Contendforthefaith has shown is "beneha’elohim" then Genesis 6:2 should be no exception.
    By simply allowing the Bible to interpret itself, or as our brother AnticipateHisComing put it "helpful purpose of good exegesis", the most likely correct rendering of "sons of God" (beneha’elohim) in Genesis 6:2 is "Angels of God."
     
  7. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Read what I wrote. I said if they mated they would not create a soul, only flesh. The quotes of 2 Peter and Jude have nothing to do with Gen 6.
    That is a purpose, not a created feature. We are created in the image of God. Angels chose to follow or not follow God the same as you say is our special feature. Choice is certainly a "feature" of their creation like us, but we not angels are in the image of God and may be redeemed by Jesus' death.

    So you think that fallen angels can mate with women and create a new soul, but not when we mate, we don't create a new soul? Scripture is clear that when men and women reproduce a new person with a soul comes about. Do you think God sends a soul down from heaven for everyone born? This is why Jesus is special, and his birth required a virgin conception, no man involved, otherwise Jesus would have had a new soul and not his eternal spirit.
    Angels are spirits. Demons are spirits. It is not "easy" for angels to take on flesh or even effect the physical world. When they do so it is governed by what God allows. It is a poor argument of conjecture that because God does not allow the evil spirits to interact with us exactly the same, means they are not both angels.
    Do you think the fallen angels have physical chains holding them somewhere? The chains symbolize being constrained by God, but in the last days they will be let loose from the chains. If you looked at the world you would see the work of Satan and his servants/spirits. I have provided many texts. Do you know how the Psalms repeat the same two different ways? Look at 1 Timouthy 4:1 and Revelation 18:2 to see demons are impure spirits. If angels are spirits, then impure spirits are Satan's angels. And Romans 8:38 as I already pointed out is clear, demons are angels.
     
  8. dysert

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    It's true that Revelation isn't all in chronological order. I wrote a book on Revelation, given this very premise.

    As for the demons and (holy) angels, here is their chronology:
    1. All the angels were created back in time (Isa. 14; Ezek. 28).
    2. Satan rebelled, as did 1/3 of the holy angels, who I will now call demons (Rev. 12:4).
    3. God still permits Satan and some demons access to Him (Job 1:6).
    4. Some of the demons took on the form of men (Heb. 13:2) and had sex with women (Gen. 6:2).
    5. These demons were then consigned to a spiritual prison (Jude 6).
    6. Satan and the rest of the demons are still free to roam the earth (1 Pet. 5:8; Eph. 2:2; Matt. 12:43).
    7. During the Tribulation, a final war in heaven will evict Satan and these free demons once and for all (Rev. 12:7-9).
    8. The final abode of Satan and the demons will be the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10).
     
  9. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    But this exegesis does not counter anything I have stated. In fact the quoted Job 38:7 only reinforces my claim that the stars of Rev 12:4 are angels. Understand that Revelation uses symbolism. If you can figure out that the dragon in 12:3 is Satan, than you should be able to figure out that the starts of 12:4 are angels, fallen. Have you ever seen the movie "It's a wonderful life"? Even they associate stars with angels.
     
  10. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Isn't your whole understanding of Genesis 6 the result of fallen angels taking on the form of men such that they can mate with women?
     
  11. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    Do you acknowledge that there are multiple heavens/spiritual realms?
    Do you acknowledge that God the Father is in heaven, the highest heaven?
    Do you acknowledge that there is a different spiritual realm where angels and demons battle?
    Do you acknowledge that there is a spiritual realm on earth?
    Do you acknowledge that the Son of God is God and mediator between God the Father and man and Satan? That he commands and leads the angels in battle against Satan?

    I do not believe God the Father allows anything impure in his presence. Not even Moses could see his face, let alone Satan. When Satan goes to God, it is not in the highest heaven, but in the heavenly/spiritual realm on earth.

    I don't see scripture that says Jude 6 is addressing the demons of Genesis 6.

    As for your point 7, I can't see the chapter as future. The last verse states exactly where the Christian Church is today, where Satan is at war with "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus".
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Except quoting a religious text is FAR different than quoting a secular text. The religious quote means not only was it read, but it was believed and it was quoted to make others believe as well.
     
  13. dysert

    dysert Member

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    Your beliefs are noted, but I give Scriptural support for my beliefs (though I admit my opinions could still be wrong).
     
  14. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    You are misrepresenting my position. When did I ever say all revelation "is sequential"? I said Rev 12 is.

    Eden is not mentioned there at all. BTW, Eden was just a place on the Earth. It was the garden of Eden that was special and no, that isn't mentioned there either.


    Don't tell me what I don't acknowledge. I believe they are here.


    Again, stop telling me what you think I believe.


    I'm going to ignore the rest of this nonsense.
     
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    No rebellion is shown there.
     
  16. Abraxos

    Abraxos 117

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    I meant both in flesh and in spirit as that angels are spirits themselves and the daughters of men were of the flesh. So I was referring to both body and spirit. And since you don't agree that Jude 6:2 and 2 Peter 2:4 are referring to Genesis 6:2, what were they referring to?

    Also, I was speaking of a living soul in the sense of living eternally. Evil spirits are not living spirits in that same sense. Though they have no body, doesn't mean they are eternal beings. So from the context made more clear to you, isn't it only God that can bring forth a living soul?

    The Bible says that angels do take the form of men be it effortlessly or not (even Satan is mentioned), and there are no examples in the Bible of demons doing the same. I don't see how that is a poor argument to use when you are not providing scripture to justify your claims that angels and demons are one of the same. My point is angels can take the form of men and demons cannot. A contradiction that you haven't addressed but are dancing around it. How is that being honest to the what the scriptures are saying?

    So your argument is that the angels have just been set loose right about now? Take my position and ask yourself honestly, doesn't that seem awfully convenient and rather nonsensical as even in the time of Jesus, and in the time of Job 4.12-15 we have examples of evil spirits. Were the angels set loose back then as well? You're really reaching for the skies, brother.

    However way you look at what the chains are, is besides the point, according to scripture they are being constrained in darkness. And just because angels are spirits and demons are spirits, I think it is a bit of a stretch (not to mention unbiblical) to ascertain they are therefore the same. And using Romans 8:38 doesn't claim they're the same, you're reading into something that isn't there.

    Try to focus. I'm talking about Genesis 6 which in the OT. If there are numerous examples of the "sons of God" being used in OT as being referred to as angels of God, Genesis 6:2 which uses the same Hebraic wording should be also used as angels of God.

    You know, the more I learn about your position on that angels and demons are the same, the more I realise that it is less to do with Biblical conception, and more about a insisting it is true because you say so, even to the point you are making things up.
     
  17. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For me, in short yes. They are the fallen angels. Either that or the other theory that they are more of the offspring of the fallen angels that died in the flood. Either way, the origins are coming from the fallen angels.
     
  18. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Your logic is correct, and Paul did quote secular texts. However Paul never called them prophecy. The fact that the author of Jude calls this section of the Book of Enoch prophecy means that it does contain scripture. As your logic points out, not all of it may be scripture, but logic also points out that some of it is. So it can't simply be brushed away from the Bible as you attempted to do. Neither can the story of the Nephilim, which is contained in scripture, including in Jude. The only thing that should be brushed away from the Bible is the Sethite theory; it is the only thing that is not found in scripture, and it's a relatively modern heresy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  19. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Led by Satan, they rebelled against God.
     
  20. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Just because a book is quoted in scripture, that does not make that book a part of the canon of scripture.
     
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