are all sheep saved or chosen before salvation

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Matt 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

when did God know them?

eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before Him in love.

Are they all saved?

luke 15:4 what man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Can god lose a sheep?

lets look at context here....

Luke 15:1 Then draw near unto Him all the tax collectors and gentiles for to heaR Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying This man recieveth sinners, and eath with Him.

Luke 15:6And when he cometh home He calleth together His friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety nine just persons, which need no repentance.

whatca all think?
 

nobdysfool

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Matt 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

when did God know them?

eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before Him in love.

Are they all saved?

luke 15:4 what man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Can god lose a sheep?

lets look at context here....

Luke 15:1 Then draw near unto Him all the tax collectors and gentiles for to heaR Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying This man recieveth sinners, and eath with Him.

Luke 15:6And when he cometh home He calleth together His friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety nine just persons, which need no repentance.

whatca all think?
I think Jesus chose the example of sheep for a good reason. Sheep can't take care of themselves, they need a shepherd to lead them and protect them. Sheep don't of their own choice go into the fold, they must be led to the fold. Sheep are actually pretty stupid. Sheep cannot free themselves if they are trapped.

Yet, we have many well-meaning Christian brothers and sisters who believe that sheep CAN free themselves, CAN choose to go into the fold by themselves, and CAN protect themselves. Rather than see and enjoy the great comfort that comes from understanding that it was God who chose them, it was God who enabled them to believe via regeneration of their hearts unto faith in Christ, they still insist that it was they who chose to believe in Christ while they were dead in sins, while they had no desire for Christ. They cling to the idea that they have an autonomous free will that God cannot violate, and oppose anyone who tries to tell them the truth.

They cling to a distorted view of God in His interactions with men. They see John say that God is Love, and then assume that that's all He is, that everything else about Him is merely a subset of Love, and then go on to create an emasculated, wimpy, pasty-faced, caricature of God as a Being who pines away for love from His creation, desperately desiring that love, as though He were somehow unfulfilled without it. They've reduced Jesus to "baby-Jesus-meek-and-mild", a 98 pound weakling. They don't realize it, and won't admit it, but they've reduced God to a fairly ineffectual god, not really able to direct the affairs of men, but dependent on man to cooperate with Him. They really have put man in the center seat, in control of his own salvation, to obtain or reject it, as man wills, and God is either unable or unwilling to interfere or influence that choice, all because of the human idea that love must be freely given by man to God, or its not really love. They do not understand the condition of man, or how God works.
 
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nobdysfool

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Ben johnson said:
"I am the door of the sheep. If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9

Whoever enters, becomes His sheep.
No, Ben. Two fallacies in your view:

1. Entering the door doesn't make them sheep, it makes them saved. You are assuming something that it doesn't say. It says "they shall be saved", NOT "they shall become sheep". They are Christ's sheep because God has chosen them to give to Christ. God's choosing of them is what makes them sheep, NOT their entering through Christ.

2. Jesus makes a statement that does not address nor is it meant to imply ability to enter. That is not the point of Jesus' words. The word "if" makes this a conditional statement. IF any man comes in, he SHALL be saved.
What causes him to come in is not addressed.
You assume it's his own self-generated faith, because you WANT it to say that. But you cannot prove that with this verse.

You are reading it as "Any man who wants to can come in and he will become a sheep and be saved."

That's not what it says!

Yours is a logical fallacy:

1. All sheep are saved
2. Anyone who enters through Christ is saved
3. Therefore, entering through Christ makes that one a sheep.

Statement number one is not accurate. Sheep are sheep because God has chosen them before the foundation of the world TO BE sheep. The sheep are given to Christ by the Father. It is His choice of them that makes them sheep, not their self-generated choice that makes them sheep. Sheep who enter through Christ are saved, but it is not their entrance through Christ that makes them sheep. Because the sheep are so by God's choice, all sheep will enter through Christ and be saved. God the Father makes them sheep. Entering in through Christ into the fold makes them saved. Until the sheep enter the fold through Christ, they are not saved, but they are still sheep.

Since statement number one is not accurate, the conclusion (statement number 3) cannot be accurate.

Statement number 2 is the only accurate statement of the three.
 
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kudos nobdysfool
Matt 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

when did God know them?

eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before Him in love.

Are they all saved?

luke 15:4 what man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Can god lose a sheep?

lets look at context here....

Luke 15:1 Then draw near unto Him all the tax collectors and gentiles for to heaR Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying This man recieveth sinners, and eath with Him.

Luke 15:6And when he cometh home He calleth together His friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety nine just persons, which need no repentance.

what did they repent or believe that they need God?

lets look at the parables that come directly after this statement.

luke 15:8-10 silver lost found repent sinner
luke 15:11-32 lost son

who is the lost son... vs 15:2 sinners[eph 2:11-12] and tax collectors[for rome ]

elder son that kept commandments vs 15:2 pharisees and scribes[jews]


vs 32 brother was dead[lost][spiritually] and is alive[found]

God's word is so good
 
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Ben johnson said:
"I am the door of the sheep. If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9

Whoever enters, becomes His sheep.
Good Day, Ben

Interesting take here :scratch:

Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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frumanchu

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Ben johnson said:
"I am the door of the sheep. If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." Jn10:9

Whoever enters, becomes His sheep.
Forgetting for a moment that the you are once again commiting logical fallacy by assuming something from a conditional statement that it doesn't say, you are ignoring the verse immediately preceding this one which completely contradicts the notion that they become sheep AFTER entering.

"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them." - John 10:8 (NASB - emphasis added)

This verse clearly states that the sheep did not hear those who came before Him. Which means they were sheep before He came. Which means entering is not what makes them sheep.
 
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Ben lets look at this verse not john

Matt 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

when did God know them?

eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before Him in love.

Are they all saved?

luke 15:4 what man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Can god lose a sheep?

lets look at context here....

Luke 15:1 Then draw near unto Him all the tax collectors and gentiles for to heaR Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying This man recieveth sinners, and eath with Him.

Luke 15:6And when he cometh home He calleth together His friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety nine just persons, which need no repentance.

whatca all think?
This sheep need to repent[ change his mind about God]

Gentlies and tax collectors had a reputation of being bad.

This is what gentiles where before the cross.
eph 2:11 wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ being aliens from the common wealth[politics] off Israel, and stangers from the covenants of promise having no hope, and godless in this world.

Yet God called these men sheep!

before salvation
 
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Philip dT

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The following from the Joh 10-passage:



1. People are compared to sheep. Some are Jesus' sheep:

"he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out" (10:3)

"And when he puts forth his own sheep" (10:4)



2. Jesus is the door of the sheep (10:7,9), not "his own" sheep.



3. If anyone enters in by Me (Jesus), he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. Note verse 3: "he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." It is only Jesus' own sheep that He will lead out. If you are saved, you shall go in and out and find pasture. To "find pasture" is something only Jesus' sheep can do if He has let them to it. So Ben is right. They only become His own sheep if they are saved by entering through the door.



4. "The sheep" refers to all people and "His own sheep" are those who entered through the door.

"I am the door of the sheep" (verse 7) - all sheep!

"The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (verse 11,15) - all sheep!



But, only His own sheep He will call by name and lead them out (verse 3). They only will follow Him and know His voice (verse 4).



Jesus use different images accounted for in the gospel of John to illustrate the same principle:



Joh 6:35 "And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst."

Joh 6:47-48 "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me has everlasting life. (48) I am the Bread of life."



Joh 8:12 "Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."



Joh 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture."



Joh 11:25 "Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live."



Joh 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me."



Joh 15:5 "I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."



All of these images has an indicative: Jesus - who He is, what He does.

And all of them also has an imperative: What the world must do in order to enter into a relationship with the I AM: believe, abide, etc.

All of these images must be read together, none of them can be read in isolation.

 
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In 1 john 3:10 there are children of God and children of the devil

In matt 13:24 wheat and tares vs 38 defines words

In matt 13:47 casting the net gathering of every kind!
vs 49 angels will sever the wicked from the just

different pictures for all to see.
 
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