Are Adventist the only ones who believe in the 1000 Year Millennium?

[reddogs]

Does anyone know of Baptist, Lutherans, Methodists or other churches of the Refomers that believe in saints going through records in heaven and understand this truth about the thousand years as described in scripture?


Here's Revelation 20 in its entirety:


Now here's a brief summary of each verse :

vs. 1 - An angel descends from heaven with a key and a chain.
vs. 2 - He binds Satan for 1000 years.
vs. 3 - During the 1000 years Satan cannot deceive the nations any more.
vs. 4 - Martyrs are resurrected to reign with Jesus Christ for 1000 years.
vs. 5a - The rest of the dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 6 - Those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
vs. 7 - Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 8 ; After the rest of the dead are raised, Satan deceives them again. There will be billions - like the sand of the sea. They are called Gog and Magog. Satan gathers them for a final battle.
vs. 9 - Satan and this host surround God's City. Fire comes down and devours them.
vs. 10 - Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet end up in this lake of fire.
vs. 11 - Before this fire falls, a final judgment occurs.
vs. 12 - All the resurrected lost are judged.
vs. 13 - Another description of the resurrected lost being judged.
vs. 14 - Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
vs. 15 - All the resurrected lost are cast into the lake of fire.

To break it down even further: there is a good resurrection;(called the first resurrection at the beginning of the 1000 years (vs. 4-6), whereas the rest of the dead are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years (vs. 5a). Satan is bound during the 1000 years (vs. 3), but is loosed when the thousand years are expired and the rest of the deadare raised (compare verses 5a and 7). Satan gathers the lost for a final battle against God's City (vs. 8). A final judgment occurs, and then the lost are punished in the lake of fire (verses 9, 14, 15). Then the old earth passes, and the new earth comes (Revelation 21:1).

The above points are undeniable, for this is exactly what Revelation 20 says. Two significant facts should be noted:

Revelation 20 doesnt say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years.
Revelation 20 doesnt say Jesus Christ will rule during the 1000 years from the present city of Jerusalem.

Check it out http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/

Jesus Christ clearly spoke of two resurrections when He said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). The apostle Paul also spoke of these two resurrections when he said, "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15). Thus both Jesus Christ and Paul spoke of two resurrections, the first being the resurrection of life for the just, and the second being the resurrection of damnation for the unjust. This is a clear Bible teaching....
...excerpts from Steve Wohlberg article White Horse Media | Steve Wohlberg

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

As far as I'm aware, the investigative judgment and the vacant earth millennium are the two doctrines unique to the SDA's.

Revelation 20 doesn’t say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years.
Revelation 20 doesn’t say Jesus Christ will rule during the 1000 years from the present city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 19 says that Christ returns to earth before the Millennium. So from that we can conclude where the Millennial kingdom will be.


Also, if you look carefully at that chapter, it is actually talking about three resurrections. Verse 13 is not another description of the previously describes resurrection, but a new resurrection.

The first resurrection is for God's church, the first fruits of salvation, who were called in this age and repented in this age. This occurs at Christ's return, before the Millennium, and is foreshadowed by the Feast of Trumpets.

The second resurrection is for those who were not called in this age, billions of unevangelized people, who will be resurrected to hear the gospel. Satan would have no reason to attempt to deceive them if their eternal fate were already sealed. Verse 12 says that the book of life will be opened at their judgment, implying that at least some of them will have their names written in it - it is only those names are not written in the book of life who are thrown into the lake of fire.

The third resurrection mentioned in verses 13 and 14 is for those who were called into God's church in this age and either rejected their calling or apostatized. They will be judged guilty of rebellion against God and cast into the lake of fire.

http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/articles/list.cfm?cat=18

 

[reddogs]

Christ comes in the second coming to take the saints to heaven , but Chirst does not step on earth, the saints are lifted into to the air from their graves. Both the Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life will be restored to the dead in the resurrection on the last day. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV).
"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection" (Revelation 20:5-6 NKJV).
The wicked dead remain as dust, to be raised after the millennium in the resurrection of damnation. Here is a good explanation...

At the return of Christ, the decision as to who would constitute the redeemed and who the wicked had already been made. The judgment which was given unto the saints must therefore be a judgment of verification. God's righteousness and justice must forever be vindicated before the universe. During the thousand years, every case will be scrutinized - no lingering doubts may remain - one harmonious chord must exist in heaven and with one voice all will proclaim:
...Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Revelation 15:3
God's judgment will be declared righteous. (Romans 2:5; 2 Thess. 1:5; Genesis 18:25; Psalm 19:9)

In this millennial judgment, God's dealing with the rejectors of His truth and of evil angels will be scrutinized (Hebrews 10:26,27; 2 Peter 2:4,9; Jude 6). The saints will judge the world.
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:2,3 NKJV

After the thousand years and the verification of judgment in heaven, the final events in the great controversy between good and evil will take place. In this final drama, God s name will be fully vindicated. Every knee will bow, and evil will forever be eradicated. These events are described in Revelation chapters 20-22. As the book of Revelation is written in chiastic structure, with the heart of the chiasm (events dealing with the final events before the return of Christ) in the middle of the book, the events described in these chapters appear to be described in reverse sequence. (eg. the wicked surround the New Jerusalem in Revelation 20:9, but the city only comes down from heaven in Revelation 21:2). If the chiastic structure is taken into account, then the sequence of events can be readily discerned.


After the thousand years, Christ returns to the earth to execute final judgment on the rejecters of His truth, and to take back that which is rightfully His. It is then that the kingdom will be restored to the saints.
The prophet Zechariah describes the coming of the Lord with all His saints, and how the feet of the Lord touch the earth to create a great plain (something that did not happen at the Second Coming. See Zechariah 14:4-5) The ancient prophecies made to literal Israel could have had their fulfilment in Israel of old if they had been obedient to God. The old covenant promises were transferred to spiritual Israel when they rejected the Messiah. The essence of the prophecy in Zechariah thus still applies and reaches its final fulfilment in the return of Christ after the millennium.

The New Jerusalem then descends from heaven...
And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2
From the safety of the city, the redeemed will then witness the final events which will end the great controversy between Christ and Satan. Satan will have had a thousand years to reflect upon the consequences of his actions and the sentence that awaits him.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. Revelation 20:7,8 NKJV

Satan had been bound when the wicked were slain at the first coming of Christ. The wicked that died would not come to life until a thousand years had expired.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished... Revelation 20:5

The resurrection of the wicked of all ages looses the chains of circumstances which had bound Satan, and he spurns the resurrected millions on to take the Holy City in one final effort to retain power.
...and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. Revelation 20:8 NKJV

In Ezekial 38:2 and 39:6, Gog, the king of Magog is described as an enemy of God's people. He is described as the leader of the host that would attack restored Israel. (Ezekial 38:2, 14, 16-19) but he would meet his end. This would happen "after many days" (Ezekial 38:8)
And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,' says the Lord God, 'that My fury will show in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: "Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel..."' Ezekial 38:18,19 NKJV
God destroys Gog and Israel does not battle at all. No historic figure has as yet been identified with Gog, and he stands as a symbol of the leader of rebellion, Satan himself.

God permits this final act of rebellion by Satan and his hosts together with the resurrected wicked to dispel any lingering doubt as to the antipathy of those arraigned against God and His people. Good and evil stand opposite each other. The saints within the city, the wicked without.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV

Satan and the wicked will be destroyed by fire.
...and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, that deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... Revelation 20:9,10
Then he will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...' Matthew 25:41 NKJV
With this final destruction of Satan, the great controversy ends. Satan and his host (Gog and Magog) are destroyed by fire.

The fire that destroys the wicked also cleanses the earth.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also and the works that are in it shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3:10-13
God restores the earth to its original beauty - the earth is made new.
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away. And there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1...excerpts from Professor Walter Veith http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/prophecy-daniel-revelation.htmlhttp://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/

 

[Pythons]

The answer is "no", the Seventh-day Adventists are not the only ones who believe in the 1000 year millennimum. Other groups who share in this belief are;

A) Jehovah's Witnesses (Adventist)

B) Branch Davidians (Adventist)

C) Christdelphians (Adventist)

D) Seventh-day Adventism (Adventist)




All Adventist groups believe in the 1000 year Millennium.

 

[elliotps932]

Wow... A lot of beliefs ... What happened to just be a moral person and you'll get into heaven?

 

[Pythons]

Wow... A lot of beliefs ... What happened to just be a moral person and you'll get into heaven?

Logical belief aside from the Biblical warning that one must believe Jesus is God or die in their sins.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Does anyone know of Baptist, Lutherans, Methodists or other churches of the Refomers that believe in saints going through records in heaven and understand this truth about the thousand years as described in scripture?


Here’s Revelation 20 in its entirety:


Now here’s a brief summary of each verse :

vs. 1 - An angel descends from heaven with a key and a chain.
vs. 2 - He binds Satan for 1000 years.
vs. 3 - During the 1000 years Satan cannot deceive the nations any more.
vs. 4 - Martyrs are resurrected to reign with Jesus Christ for 1000 years.
vs. 5a - The rest of the dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 6 - Those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
vs. 7 - Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 8 – After the rest of the dead are raised, Satan deceives them again. There will be billions - like the sand of the sea. They are called Gog and Magog. Satan gathers them for a final battle.
vs. 9 - Satan and this host surround God's City. Fire comes down and devours them.
vs. 10 - Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet end up in this lake of fire.
vs. 11 - Before this fire falls, a final judgment occurs.
vs. 12 - All the resurrected lost are judged.
vs. 13 - Another description of the resurrected lost being judged.
vs. 14 - Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
vs. 15 - All the resurrected lost are cast into the lake of fire.

To break it down even further: there is a ‘good resurrection’(called “the first resurrection”) at the beginning of the 1000 years (vs. 4-6), whereas “the rest of the dead” are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years (vs. 5a). Satan is bound during the 1000 years (vs. 3), but is loosed “when the thousand years are expired” and “the rest of the dead” are raised (compare verses 5a and 7). Satan gathers the lost for a final battle against God's City (vs. 8). A final judgment occurs, and then the lost are punished in the lake of fire (verses 9, 14, 15). Then the old earth passes, and the new earth comes (Revelation 21:1).

There are lots of Christians from various denoms who beleive exactly that. What they also beleive is that Jesus reigns from Jerusalem, and will continue to reign in the New Heavens and New Earth and forever after that.

I was thinking that the eschalogical position of the SDA church was the Historisist position. Was I wrong?

 

[Man-ofGod]

The answer is "no", the Seventh-day Adventists are not the only ones who believe in the 1000 year millennimum. Other groups who share in this belief are;

A) Jehovah's Witnesses (Adventist)

B) Branch Davidians (Adventist)

C) Christdelphians (Adventist)

D) Seventh-day Adventism (Adventist)




All Adventist groups believe in the 1000 year Millennium.

Jehovah Witness have a really strange view of the 1000 year Millennium period. What do Catholics believe Revelation 20 to mean? Oh wait, are you guys allowed to interpret scripture?

 

[Pythons]

Jehovah Witness have a really strange view of the 1000 year Millennium period. What do Catholics believe Revelation 20 to mean? Oh wait, are you guys allowed to interpret scripture?

I'm free to believe in anything provided it does not go against what the Church has laid down. To be honest I've never spent a lot of time with slot machines that simply don't pay out.

 

[Stryder06]

The answer is "no", the Seventh-day Adventists are not the only ones who believe in the 1000 year millennimum. Other groups who share in this belief are;

A) Jehovah's Witnesses (Adventist)

B) Branch Davidians (Adventist)

C) Christdelphians (Adventist)





All Adventist groups believe in the 1000 year Millennium.

I'd really prefer if you didn't call those guys adventists. Seventh-Day Adventists are a seperate people with a true message for these last days.

 

[Pythons]

I'd really prefer if you didn't call those guys adventists. Seventh-Day Adventists are a seperate people with a true message for these last days.

They are all Adventists, just not "Seventh-day Adventists". After Christ didn't come in 1844 the Advent movement broke up leaving "A Remnant".

The only people left in the Remnant were those who didn't have a mainstream chuch to return to. They were all Arian or Semi-Arian (anti-Trinitarian). William Miller was a devout Trinitarian and when he realized his mistake he fell to his knees, wept and returned to his former church as did the majority of the other people in the Advent movement.

Shortly after 1844, the remnant that was left, started to argue among themselves and subsequently started to form sub-remnants. The group that Ellen was a part of didn't believe exactly the same as some of the other groups so they had to come up with a name, thus,

"Seventh-day Adventists" (they were "Adventists" who believed in the seventh day Sabbath).


A Jehovah's Witness and a Christadelphian is as much an Adventist as an SDA is, they are just not "Seventh day" Adventists.

Other Adventist bodies emerged in the 19th century. Some, such as the Advent Christian Church and the Life and Advent Union (which merged into the Advent Christian Church in 1964), rejected both the prophetic status of Ellen White and seventh-day worship. Another group, the International Bible Students Association, inspired by Miller and Adventist teachings, was founded by the preacher Charles Taze Russell in 1872. Changing its name to the Jehovah’s Witnesses in the 1930s, it became the second successful group to emerge from the original Millerite movement. Another Sabbatarian church, the Worldwide Church of God, emerged in the 1930s; at its height in the 1980s, it claimed more than 100,000 members. During the 1990s the Worldwide Church of God engaged in a process of doctrinal reevaluation that led it to renounce the beliefs it had inherited from Adventism and join the larger Evangelical movement.

All secular and religious encyclopedia's say the same thing. Miller initiated the great "Advent" movement. Miller was able to convince people that Christ was going to come on a specific date. Miller did this as a Trinitarian. The people who "remained" after 1844 were called "Adventists", they rejected the Trinity and held to some other beliefs they picked up from George Storrs. This is why, aside from the Sabbath and prophecy doctrine of SDA's, the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and the World Wide Church of God are nearly IDENTICAL to SDA teachings. They are all Adventist, but not all are Seventh-day Adventist.

I didn't want to leave this thread with you thinking I was trying to be sarcastic or throwing mud. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's just what it is.

 

[Stryder06]

They are all Adventists, just not "Seventh-day Adventists". After Christ didn't come in 1844 the Advent movement broke up leaving "A Remnant".

The only people left in the Remnant were those who didn't have a mainstream chuch to return to. They were all Arian or Semi-Arian (anti-Trinitarian). William Miller was a devout Trinitarian and when he realized his mistake he fell to his knees, wept and returned to his former church as did the majority of the other people in the Advent movement.

Shortly after 1844, the remnant that was left, started to argue among themselves and subsequently started to form sub-remnants. The group that Ellen was a part of didn't believe exactly the same as some of the other groups so they had to come up with a name, thus,

"Seventh-day Adventists" (they were "Adventists" who believed in the seventh day Sabbath).


A Jehovah's Witness and a Christadelphian is as much an Adventist as an SDA is, they are just not "Seventh day" Adventists.




All secular and religious encyclopedia's say the same thing. Miller initiated the great "Advent" movement. Miller was able to convince people that Christ was going to come on a specific date. Miller did this as a Trinitarian. The people who "remained" after 1844 were called "Adventists", they rejected the Trinity and held to some other beliefs they picked up from George Storrs. This is why, aside from the Sabbath and prophecy doctrine of SDA's, the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and the World Wide Church of God are nearly IDENTICAL to SDA teachings. They are all Adventist, but not all are Seventh-day Adventist.

I didn't want to leave this thread with you thinking I was trying to be sarcastic or throwing mud. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's just what it is.

Ok, I get what you mean by them being "adventist" but either way, as it stands now when you mention adventist you don't think JW you think Seventh Day, thus this is the reason why I'd prefer to not be lumped together with the JW and Branch Dividians (don't know much about the other group you mentioned) The simple fact that the sabbath and prophecy are the underlining factors of the true church of God as identified in the bible, I believe that it is best to remain seperate.

Not trying to start a fire with the true church statement, but that is what I believe, and it is what the bible teaches.

 

[Pythons]

Ok, I get what you mean by them being "adventist" but either way, as it stands now when you mention adventist you don't think JW you think Seventh Day, thus this is the reason why I'd prefer to not be lumped together with the JW and Branch Dividians (don't know much about the other group you mentioned) The simple fact that the sabbath and prophecy are the underlining factors of the true church of God as identified in the bible, I believe that it is best to remain seperate.

Not trying to start a fire with the true church statement, but that is what I believe, and it is what the bible teaches.

I see what you are saying Stryder. I tried to direct it to the question of the O.P. which asked if SDA's were the only group to believe in the 1000 year Mill. My answer is that all "Adventist" groups believed in it just like all Adventist groups believe like you do with the state of the dead.

 

[Stryder06]

I see what you are saying Stryder. I tried to direct it to the question of the O.P. which asked if SDA's were the only group to believe in the 1000 year Mill. My answer is that all "Adventist" groups believed in it just like all Adventist groups believe like you do with the state of the dead.

That's fair. Of course I didn't think that JW believed it the same way we did, as in the earth being desolate during that time, with only satan and his angels to roam about it.

 

[ultimate risk]

pride cometh before the fall

 

[RR144]

Well, when people think Charles Taze Russell, they think Jehovah'[s Witnesses, truth is, the JW's have rejected just about everything Russell taught. Russell founded the "Bible Students", it was a renegade Bible Students J.F. Rutherford who founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Pythons]

JW's are "Russellites".

 

[reddogs]

They are all Adventists, just not "Seventh-day Adventists". After Christ didn't come in 1844 the Advent movement broke up leaving "A Remnant".

The only people left in the Remnant were those who didn't have a mainstream chuch to return to. They were all Arian or Semi-Arian (anti-Trinitarian). William Miller was a devout Trinitarian and when he realized his mistake he fell to his knees, wept and returned to his former church as did the majority of the other people in the Advent movement.

Shortly after 1844, the remnant that was left, started to argue among themselves and subsequently started to form sub-remnants. The group that Ellen was a part of didn't believe exactly the same as some of the other groups so they had to come up with a name, thus,

"Seventh-day Adventists" (they were "Adventists" who believed in the seventh day Sabbath).


A Jehovah's Witness and a Christadelphian is as much an Adventist as an SDA is, they are just not "Seventh day" Adventists.




All secular and religious encyclopedia's say the same thing. Miller initiated the great "Advent" movement. Miller was able to convince people that Christ was going to come on a specific date. Miller did this as a Trinitarian. The people who "remained" after 1844 were called "Adventists", they rejected the Trinity and held to some other beliefs they picked up from George Storrs. This is why, aside from the Sabbath and prophecy doctrine of SDA's, the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and the World Wide Church of God are nearly IDENTICAL to SDA teachings. They are all Adventist, but not all are Seventh-day Adventist.

I didn't want to leave this thread with you thinking I was trying to be sarcastic or throwing mud. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's just what it is.

But each group then went its seperate ways and took on a new name/identity, so today when you say Adventist it has a distinct meaning as Seventh-Day Adventist as the old usage for those groups is not used or rarely brought up.

 

[BobRyan]

The millerites were known as "Adventists" simply because they believed what many rejected -- a premillennial 2nd coming that was "soon". Of the 50,000 millerites in the spring of 1844 - only about 50 went on to form the Seventh-day Adventist church.

William Miller was a trinitarian - so also were many other Millerites include Ellen White (Ellen Harmon at the time) a 17 year old Methodist at the start of 1844.

The group we know today as "Seventh-day Adventists" started keeping the Sabbath in 1845-1846. Any group that broke off from the main group between October 22, 1844 and the point in 1845 where Sabbath keeping was adopted by the Adventists - is not likely to consider Seventh-day Adventism their own historic root.

Ellen White never claimed to be opposed to the Trinity - and was very influential in getting other Seventh-day Adventists to accept it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OntheDL]

The millerites were known as "Adventists" simply because they believed what many rejected -- a premillennial 2nd coming that was "soon". Of the 50,000 millerites in the spring of 1844 - only about 50 went on to form the Seventh-day Adventist church.

William Miller was a trinitarian - so also were many other Millerites include Ellen White (Ellen Harmon at the time) a 17 year old Methodist at the start of 1844.

The group we know today as "Seventh-day Adventists" started keeping the Sabbath in 1845-1846. Any group that broke off from the main group between October 22, 1844 and the point in 1845 where Sabbath keeping was adopted by the Adventists - is not likely to consider Seventh-day Adventism their own historic root.

Ellen White never claimed to be opposed to the Trinity - and was very influential in getting other Seventh-day Adventists to accept it.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Good to have you back. Long time no see.

Ellen White did support the concept of the triune Godhead, but she never used the word trinity in her writings. And I don't think she ever explicitly supported the trinitarian concept of 1 in 3, 3 in 1.

Ellen White often referred to the fact that God never revealed any truth to an individual but to the remnant as a group. The pioneers uniformly rejected the doctrine of trinity. Ellen White never publicly supported it. It was adopted to the church in 1930s long after Ellen White's death. So I don't think the church received more light considering it rejected the 1888 message and the SOP that Ellen White had to exile herself to Australia.

Furthermore the Nicean Creed since its inception in 325AD til today has been a message that has been used to distinguish and to persecute the dissidents. The little horn used it to pluck up three horns by the roots. So I'm not in that camp.

Just something to think about...