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aramaic

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by sahjimira, Nov 11, 2015.

  1. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    The issue is whether God or the son of God would be able to understand human languages.

    Since the Bible teaches the Apostles could speak all languages, when empowered by God, it makes complete sense that God Himself or God's Son could speak all languages.

    If I can teach or make someone else speak Portuguese, that means that I can speak Portuguese.

    If God can make the Apostles speak Latin, Arabic, Thracian and whatever, that means God can speak Latin, Arabic, Thracian and so on.
     
  2. Wgw

    Wgw Pray For Brussels!

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    Not quite; here we have to be very careful to avoid either Nestorianism or Monothelitism.
     
  3. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    Are you not aware of the concept of κένωσις (kenosis) that says that Jesus emptied (ἐκένωσεν) himself? He didn't possess all knowledge. To say "God" in this instance is not referring to Jesus upon earth. We know that Jesus, as a human being, didn't know everything.
     
  4. Wgw

    Wgw Pray For Brussels!

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    That being said, without wishing to tread into the realm of Nestorius, it must be observed that kenosis would not apply to the impassable and immutable divine nature. The doctrine of hypostatic union requires that this divinity furthermore remain united initimately with our Lord; to quote the Coptic liturgy, his Divinity did not part from His humanity for the twinkling of an eye.
     
  5. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    I'm not all that worried about "Nestorianism" or any other heretic. It just doesn't come to my mind. I'm not bothered by the idea of being a heretic.
     
  6. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    As a non-Trinitarian, I believe God could well allow his son prescience, prophetic insight, mind-reading abilities, supernatural intuition, and the ability to speak any language required in that given situation. If he met a person speaking a Sinic language, he would be able to speak with that person in their own language, due to the gift of tongues. Tradition even ascribes this skill to Joseph in Egypt.

    Yeshua could make fish and bread appear. He could transmute one liquid into another. Some passages also imply a mystical ability to go unseen by crowds (that were trying to stone him.) Yeshua had many powers, which he really only used when the situation specifically called for it.
     
  7. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    I'm not talking about hypotheticals. I'm talking about what he knew, not what he might have been able to do miraculously.
     
  8. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    I think he probably never had occasion to speak any language associated with China in the 1st century. However regarding his ability to do so, which clearly was the point of our discussion, I have no doubt.

    This question was implicit in my first post: IF the apostles of Yeshua could speak any language, by the supernatural gift we call Tongues, then is it not logical that Yeshua (who is assumed here to be greater in power and closer to God) also can at the very least match his apostles?

    "The student is not greater than his master", Yeshua said.
     
  9. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    It is becoming evident, from recent archeology that Ivrit was much more prelevantly utilized than the church previously assumed to be by Jews in the 1st century. I'm of the opinion(not blind) that the brit chadasha was transmitted from a Hebrew context as opposed to greek or aramaic....again, I say opinion.
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Of course it would have, it was written by Jews! A Hebrew context written in Koine Greek.
     
  11. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    "....there is nothing new under the sun". "People will run to and fro and knowledge will be increased" :wave:
     
  12. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    They were all Jews...exactly my point!

    *yawn*

    Papias (150-170 CE) - Matthew composed the words in the Hebrew dialect, and each translated as he was able. [A quote by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 3:39]



    Ireneus (170 CE) - Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. [Against Heresies 3:1]

    Origen (210 CE) - The first [Gospel] is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an apoltle of Jesus Christ who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew. [A quote by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 6:25]

    Eusebius (315 CE) - Matthew also, having first proclaimed the Gospel in Hebrew, when on the point of going also to the other nations, committed it to writing in his native tongue, and thus supplied the want of his presence to them by his writings. [Eccl. Hist. 3:24]

    Epiphanius (370 CE) - They [The Nazarenes] have the Gospel according to Matthew quite complete in Hebrew, for this Gospel is certainly still preserved among them as it was first written, in Hebrew letters. [Panarion 29:9:4]

    Jerome ( 382 CE) - Matthew, who is also Levi, and from a tax collectore came to be an Apostle first of all evangelists composed a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and letters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed, who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian cityof Borea to copy it. In which is to be remarked that, wherever the evangelist.... makes use of the testimonies of the Old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but that of the Hebrew. [Lives of Illustrious Men, Book 5]

    Isho'dad (850 CE) - His [Matthew's] book was in existence in Caesarea of Palestine, and everyone acknowledges that he wrote it with his hands in Hebrew. [Isho'dad Commentary on the Gospels]
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    yawn back...I never denied that Matthew "MAY" have originally written his Gospel in Hebrew...HOWEVER, that does not mean the rest of the NT was not in Koine Greek or that original Matthew was or was not transliterated from the Greek. The evidence (any manuscripts) is lacking for your theory...sorry.
     
  14. 613jono

    613jono Member

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    I think your predecessors disagree with your premise of "MAY" . Matthew "Transliterated from the Greek"? Im going to assume you mean translated? Either option is quite a stretch based on the number of the above who concur it was Hebrew.

    The language(Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew) contained in the originals of any of the "NT" manuscripts(since none of the originals are available) -other than early refrence to Matthew, are debateable. I agree the mojority believe it to be Greek, but the majority used to think the earth was flat.

    So far we have evidence that lends creedance to at least one book in the "NT" being Hebrew.
     
  15. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    If I told you that Thomas Paine wrote some federalist papers, does this mean that he wrote every federalist paper or that you can claim that any federalist paper that appears anonymously and is later given his name was written by him.

    Matthew may have written something. They say that he wrote "the oracles of the lord." This doesn't mean that he wrote an entire gospel. Nor does it mean that a gospel that appears later and gets his name assigned to it was written by him.
     
  16. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    I understand what you are trying to say, but it has been almost 2000 years and many manuscripts have been found, even recently, yet not one NT manuscript has been found in Hebrew that predates the Greek. Why would that be if there were so many Hebrew originals? I guess only the Vatican Archives really know LOL...who knows what they have down there, the Temple Menorah...an ancient alien?
     
  17. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Yes, you are so right-on in correctly interpreting the SOP :)

    The Bible was devinely inspired with the writers like Matthew serving as a kind of co-author transcriber with the Lord God as Primary Source Author bringing to remembrance the Words that would be recorded by the relevant Apostles. :)
    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    At the time of Josephus, there is a Jewish tradition saying it is better to eat swine than learn Greek.
     
  19. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    People cannot always cannot control which language they learn.
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Attitude prevails... I am a Canadian taught french because the government demands I learn it... guess what... even after 9 years of french classes.. I may have retained a few sentences.. and that is even after dating a french only speaking boyfriend... My attitude towards being forced to learn french really helped.
     
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