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Approaches to Eschatology

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Biblewriter, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  2. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Yes, I did, actually. It says τοῦ παρόντος εἰς ὑμᾶς, καθὼς καὶ ἐν παντὶ τῷ κόσμῳ ἐστὶν καρποφορούμενον καθὼς καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν, ἀφ’ ἧς ἡμέρας ἠκούσατε καὶ ἐπέγνωτε τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ·

    The word παντὶ has a range of meanings. In this case it should be translated as "whole" or "entire."

    The word κόσμῳ has a range of meanings. In this case it should be translated as "world." The translation "system world" is just nonsense.

    I think that your interlinear is unreliable and/or you are not using it the way it was intended to be used.
     
  3. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  4. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    The Textus Receptus is a Greek document. It does not use English words.

    Exactly!

    In the NT it usually means "world." In 1 Peter 3:3 it means "adorning." No lexicon I've seen gives "system" as a meaning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Right; and the antecedents of those pronouns are the collective inhabitants of the country or city, not an individual inhabitant.
     
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Greek pronouns do not differentiate that way. They simply reflect the number and gender of their antecedent noun.
     
  7. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  8. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Yes. So if you're using English words, you can't say that you found them in the Textus Receptus, which is a Greek document.

    Not always. And the word kosmos is never translated as "system" in any version of the NT I've seen.
     
  9. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  10. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Yes, that's what I said.

    Generally it is, as long as "world" is primarily understood in a social, rather than an astronomical, sense.
     
  11. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  12. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Very funny. That's not an astronomical case. That's the case from which we get the English word "cosmetic."

    1 Peter 3:3: Do not let your adorning (kosmos) be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    That was one of the problems I came across when translating Revelation some yrs back. For example, the word #3625.
    How would one translate that word into english? A lot of versions use "world".
    There are some threads on it for those interested

    "OIKOUMENE"(#G3625) In Olivet Discourse and Revelation. Mistranslated?

    OIKOUMENE (#3625) - (w00t!)


    feminine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    Feminine participle present passive of οἰκέω (G3611) (as noun, by implication of γῆ (G1093))
    Greek Inflections of οἰκουμένη
    mGNT — 15x in 4 unique form(s) TR — 15x in 4 unique form(s)
    οἰκουμένη — 1x
    οἰκουμένῃ — 2x
    οἰκουμένην — 8x
    οἰκουμένης — 4x

    oikoumenhV <3625> Luke 4:5, Romans 10:18, Reve 3:10, Reve 16:14.
    oikoumenh <3625> Matt 24:14, Luke 21:26, Acts 19:27
    oikoumenhn <3625> 8 times Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, 17:6, 31, 24:5, Hebrew 1:6, 2:5, Reve 12:9.

    STRONGS NT 3625: οἰκουμένη
    οἰκουμένη, οἰκουμένης, ἡ (feminine of the present passive participle from οἰκέω (namely, γῆ; cf. Winers Grammar, § 64, 5; Buttmann, § 123, 8));
    1. the inhabited earth;
    a. in Greek writings often the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians, cf. Passow, ii., p. 415a; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, I.).
    b. in the Greek authors who wrote about Roman affairs (like the Latinorbis terrarum) equivalent to the Roman empire: so πᾶσα ἡ οἰκουμένη contextually equivalent to all the subjects of this empire, Luke 2:1.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Sennacherib was undoubtedly the occasion of the prophecy in Isaiah 10. But the details in that prophecy go far beyond Sennacherib.

    1 Peter 1:10-11 says that “the prophets... who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,” “inquired and searched carefully... searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” Both suffering and glory were prophesied for the Messiah. But how could both be true? Since the time of the New Testament, we now know these prophecies applied to two different times, separated by thousands of years. This mixture of prophecies concerning widely separated times is very common in scripture, as becomes evident when we study the Assyrian.

    Sennacherib attacked Judah during the righteous reign of king Hezekiah, who “trusted in the LORD God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. For he held fast to the LORD; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD had commanded Moses.” (2 Kings 18:5-6) “Also the hand of God was on Judah to give them singleness of heart to obey the command of the king and the leaders, at the word of the LORD.” (2 Chronicles 30:12) But “after these deeds of faithfulness, Sennacherib king of Assyria came and entered Judah; he encamped against the fortified cities, thinking to win them over to himself.” (2 Chronicles 32:1) Hezekiah cried out to the Lord, who answered him, “I will defend this city, to save it For My own sake and for My servant David's sake.” (Isaiah 37:35)

    But in Isaiah 10:6, the Lord says of the king of Assyria that “I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.” Both Hezekiah and his people had been righteous and the Lord promised to save them from Sennacherib. But in the day described in Isaiah 10 the nation will have been ungodly and He will send Assyria to punish them. The first Assyrian was an enemy of God, while the second will actually be His agent.

    But this latter day Assyrian does not intend to serve God, “nor does his heart think so.” (Isaiah 10:7) He will therefore be punished “when the LORD has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem.” (verse 12) “And it shall come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of ·Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.” (verse 20) These details clearly apply to the last days. The Lord's “work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem” will not be finished until all prophecy concerning them has been fulfilled, and even to this day Israel has not learned to “depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.”

    In Micah 5:5-6 we read that “When the Assyrian comes into our land, And when he treads in our palaces, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight princely men. They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders.” This prophecy, which was given at about the same time as that of Isaiah, was never fulfilled in ancient times. When Sennacherib invaded Judea, no one rose to oppose him, much less “Seven shepherds and eight princely men.” And Israel has never wasted “the land of Assyria” “with the sword.”

    In Isaiah 14, immediately after saying the Assyrian would be destroyed, (verses 24-27) the Lord added, “do not rejoice, all you of Philistia, Because the rod that struck you is broken; For out of the serpent's roots will come forth a viper, And its ·offspring will be a fiery flying serpent... Wail, O gate! Cry, O city! All you of Philistia are dissolved; For smoke will come from the north, And no one will be alone in his appointed times.” (verses 29-31) In stating that “out of the serpent's roots will come forth a viper” and that “its ·offspring will be a fiery flying serpent,” this passage clearly sets forth two separate attacks, one in the past (relative to the time referred to) and one in the future. These two attacks are separated in time by an unspecified number of generations, as the second attacker is the “·offspring” of the first.

    Shortly after this prophecy was given, Sennacherib attacked the land of the Philistines. Some might think this was the second attack mentioned in this prophecy. But this would require that the first attack be one that had been made by either Tiglath-Pileser III or Sargon II. Each of these previous Assyrian kings had been an ancestor of Sennacherib. Each of them had conquered Philistia. And both of them were dead. But the words “the rod that struck you is broken” could not realistically be applied to either of them. The power of Assyria had not been “broken” when either of these kings had died. On the other hand, both Isaiah 37:35 and 2 Kings 19:35 tell of a most remarkable destruction of Sennacherib’s army by “the angel of the Lord.” The words “the rod that struck you is broken” clearly fit this defeat. These facts make it clear that Sennacherib is the first attacker in this prophecy, not the second one.

    The future attack “will come from the north.” For the significance of this, see the section below on “the king of the North.” (pages 64 to 66)

    In the first chapter of Nahum “one Who plots evil against the LORD, A wicked counselor,” (verse 11) comes forth from Nineveh, (Nahum 2:8 and 3:7) the ancient capitol of Assyria. In the next to the last verse of the prophecy, this “wicked counselor” is expressly called the “king of Assyria.” (Nahum 3:18) The Lord declares that He will make “an utter end” of this invasion, adding that “affliction will not rise up a second time.” (Nahum 1:9) He then tells His people that “though I have afflicted you, I will afflict you no more.” (verse 12) The Divine history and many prophecies clearly show that Judah’s affliction did not end at the destruction of Sennacherib. The Assyrian invasion was only the beginning of her great and long affliction, which has not yet ended. Indeed, their greatest affliction is still future.

    Both the severity and the long duration of this affliction are stressed in the fifth through the tenth chapters of Isaiah. The twenty-fifth verse of the fifth chapter tells us, “Therefore the anger of the LORD is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them.” Then follow the words; “For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still.” These last words are repeated over and over in the following chapters. (Isaiah 9:12, 9:17, 9:21, and 10:4) The significance of this doleful refrain finally appears in Isaiah 10:24-25: “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: ‘O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian. He shall strike you with a rod and lift up his staff against you, in the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while and the indignation will cease, as will My anger in their destruction.’”

    The Lord's indignation against His people who dwell “in Zion,” that is, “Jerusalem,” (verse 32) will continue until “the Assyrian” is destroyed. When this takes place, however, the indignation will cease and His anger will finally be “turned away.” How fitting it is that the first of the gentile conquerors of God's people should also be the last; that Judah's thousands of years of suffering should finally be ended in the destruction of their first great oppressor.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Who are the Lord's people, today and in the future?

    1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


    2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


    One of the men in the video below resides in the modern State of Israel.
    Can you explain why this Christian television program is featuring a Christ-rejecting Orthodox Jew, based on the scripture found above?




    Is this man under a different covenant with God, based on who his parents would be?

    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I implored you to try harder... guess you didn't want to.

    No matter... Our readers have seen enough to know You have been unable to d'bunk any of my detailed answers to your rather simple questions.

    You futurist bias has blinded you to both scripture and history, and even when you have to be spoon fed actual scriptural and historical evidence, you simply ignore it and say "but look over here"....

    Thankfully, your posts are a blessing to me as they only help prove my position to our readers, so, by all means, please continue....
     
  17. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    byr
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
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    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.
    Already answered in detail, and you have offered no rebuttal.

    You really don't like comparing scripture with scripture do you?

    The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

    [On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

    [On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

    [On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

    [On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

    Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

    These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

    Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

    As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

    Please explain what Jesus means by "near" here... does he mean when the signs are seen it's still thousands of years away "near"?

    Again, please point to where Jesus answers "part 1" of the question, "WHEN will the temple fall"... show us where Jesus answers that.

    Please cite your source for this spurious claim.
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    All Christians, Catholics included, are preterist. Even you.
    We only vary by degree.

    All Christians believe at least SOME "last days" prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, for scripture records such fulfillment.

    If you are truly interested though, I hold a strikingly similar eschatological view to that of Catholic theologians Dr Scott Hahn and James (Jimmy) Aiken.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  20. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is not even approximately an answer to anything I said in the post you are supposedly answering. Instead of answering it, you are, as usual, trying to change the subject. No Sale.
     
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