Appeal to Motive and the presumed selfishness of God

Moral Orel

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I don't think you can compare shoplifting to the communal weight of guilt of thousands of years worth of complicity, either direct or indirect, in human suffering. You can claim that this is finite, but the mark that indifference leaves on one's soul may well not be. So I would still disagree with you on a pretty basic level here.
Again, according to Christianity, the mark on that soul does go away, so it is finite. Except for those who go to Hell maybe, but you can't very well justify Hell because Hell.

Do you see that you're making a similar argument to mine? That because shoplifting is so small, we can't compare it to something so big? But you're still in the realm of comparing finite things, so the difference between shoplifting and the entirety of human suffering is infinitesimally smaller than the scale of comparing finite things to infinite things.

Which is really my whole point. These sorts of objections to hell rely upon certain notions of what justice is, subjective impressions of what is and isn't an appropriate punishment. There is no objective standard by which to measure this type of stuff, so we're left at appeals to emotion and intuitive arguments.
I'm arguing math, not intuition or emotion. And I'm not really objecting to Hell. I'm saying that God isn't just.
 
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Silmarien

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Again, according to Christianity, the mark on that soul does go away, so it is finite. Except for those who go to Hell maybe, but you can't very well justify Hell because Hell.

I'm talking about the mark of guilt, not the mark of suffering.

Do you see that you're making a similar argument to mine? That because shoplifting is so small, we can't compare it to something so big? But you're still in the realm of comparing finite things, so the difference between shoplifting and the entirety of human suffering is infinitesimally smaller than the scale of comparing finite things to infinite things.

I'm not comparing big vs. small. I'm comparing a concrete crime as defined by our justice system with a much more abstract, communal notion of guilt, where everyone is responsible for everything. The instance of shoplifting--the crime itself, whatever underlying causes led to it--would actually be part of that communal weight of guilt. You think that is finite, and I don't. I think that everything that happens is in some sense eternal. It can't be undone.

I'm arguing math, not intuition or emotion. And I'm not really objecting to Hell. I'm saying that God isn't just.

Sure, based on the definition of justice that you've constructed for yourself, whereby mercy is injust. That doesn't fit with most modern justice systems, so I wouldn't expect it to match up well to a picture of divine justice either.
 
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As for the reasons I now have, I can't say that I've ever actually sat down and catalogued all of them, but I think that if one peruses in full the various threads I've created here on CF, one can begin to get a feel for where I stand now, and a picture of more-or-less why. If you want, I can give you a list of the influences in my thinking that were present in the 1st year of my becoming a Christian over 33 years ago, but I'm not seeing how doing so would necessarily serve as a basis for anyone else to enter into a state of Christian belief.

A simple question which you seem quite incapable of answering:
What evidence do you have that God, as described in the Bible and believed in by Christians, exists?
 
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Moral Orel

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How? How could a Perfect God create Perfect beings with free choices, without limiting that freedom? Such beings are paradoxically less perfect, since less free, hindered as such in the choice they make. This differs from God, I AM that I AM. God being the fount of existence, what He wills Is. There is no limitation, except His own chosen limits.
Again, I see a contradiction. There's no limitation to what God can do, but He can't create a perfect being who makes free choices. The only way for that to be true is if it's logically impossible for a perfect being to make free choices. But we've already established that choices are free even if they're guaranteed based on likes and dislikes, so it can't be true.

You keep pointing to the Garden, but the situation there isn't what you paint it to be. Eve didn't have perfect knowledge of the consequences simply because God told her she would die. He let the snake in to introduce doubt. She didn't know that she wouldn't die, because God didn't give her that knowledge. It's fine if you say that God wants us to trust, but what He wants is very different from what He is capable of.

Let's try working backwards. God can create another god with all the same knowledge, power, and nature as Himself. Where does the problem of free choices come into play? I know there are going to be some paradoxes that you can point to, but you'd need to connect them to free choices for them to be pertinent.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Again, I see a contradiction. There's no limitation to what God can do, but He can't create a perfect being who makes free choices. The only way for that to be true is if it's logically impossible for a perfect being to make free choices. But we've already established that choices are free even if they're guaranteed based on likes and dislikes, so it can't be true.

You keep pointing to the Garden, but the situation there isn't what you paint it to be. Eve didn't have perfect knowledge of the consequences simply because God told her she would die. He let the snake in to introduce doubt. She didn't know that she wouldn't die, because God didn't give her that knowledge. It's fine if you say that God wants us to trust, but what He wants is very different from what He is capable of.

Let's try working backwards. God can create another god with all the same knowledge, power, and nature as Himself. Where does the problem of free choices come into play? I know there are going to be some paradoxes that you can point to, but you'd need to connect them to free choices for them to be pertinent.
You are not really paying attention to my posts, I feel. I am having to repeat myself an inordinate amount of the time.

I never said Eve had perfect knowledge of consequences, in fact argued having such knowledge would make her decisions less free and thus a more 'perfect' knowledge entails less 'perfect' freedom. This does not apply to God though, hence I said Free Will is inapplicable as concept to God, since what He wills and what Is, or what is created, aren't distinguishable - so arguing a different creation is arguing a different Will of God, and our standards of what is Good is hedged on God - the fount of Existence and essentially the 'form' of Good. Creating a perfect being with free choices - perhaps that is what God is doing? Is that not perhaps the process we are undergoing? Any such being would remain dependant on the standard from which his perfection arose, else how is it judged perfect? Self expression as Perfection can only really come from the Form of the concept itself. Any other such has less freedom, as the expression of his nature is not innate, but an external imposition.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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A simple question which you seem quite incapable of answering:
What evidence do you have that God, as described in the Bible and believed in by Christians, exists?
What do you define as 'evidence'? That term is loaded with presuppositions. From the viewpoint of Naturalistic Materialism or Ontological Materialism - nothing more concrete than supposition.

On grounds of philosophic reasoning or Historical, a priori or a posteriori, there is significant grounds to do so. It depends whether you consider it axiomatically valid as evidence, though. Your model of testing is the determining factor, here.
 
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Reasons, then. Quid est Veritas, presumably you have some reasons for believing in God. Since I imagine you think of yourself as a rational human being, presumably you think they are good reasons. That being said, would you care to share them with us?
Off topic, so I won't go in much depth. We could discuss elsewhere if you wish.

Long story short, and a bit simplistic:

I don't believe that intersubjectivity can exist outside of a structure of reality dependant on Mind, here is a thread I did on that - Reality as Construct
Associated with that is the Argument from Reason of CS Lewis.

All human societies have historically had some idea of the Divine, and I see no reason except obviously fallacious ones, to dismiss all such spiritual qualia. That is literally taking a near universal human trait and experience and deciding on fairly dubious grounds not to trust it. It makes more sense as a 'real' experience of some sort, than dismissing it as emergent or purely societal or evolutionary biology. Akin, to that mode of thought: The Missing Page

I am strongly sceptical, to such an extent that I think the five points of Agrippa are probably accurate - so I balk at simplistic arguments based solely on empiricism or sense-data that assume a whole Western scientific model of reality testing as if infallible. The axioms aren't necessarily obvious, so depends which axioms seem plausible to you. Just because we are taught this model in school, doesn't mean it is a universally valid one. Here, on a pseudo-Pascallian grounds, embracing the inclination to Theism makes more sense to me, where I draw my axiomatic line in the sand.

On historic grounds, "the die are loaded" it seems in favour of Judaeo-Christianity, and it seems the best explanation for the Empty Tomb and early Church to me. Once I accept that claim, it is hard to not make certain conclusions on the incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth.

Etc.

There are more, but if you stay on the forums long enough, and interact enough, you'll hear most of them. I used to be an Atheist too, by the way. I deconstructed my views on the matter, and decided the other side more coherent and realistic, but again, convincing others can only start once we begin agreeing on the most basic of axioms - or all bets are off.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I read two posts here that both make a similar fallacious argument, in my opinion. Instead of adressing each, I have made this thread to discuss it separately.

Roughly, God being perfect has no need to create anything as He has no wants, and therefore, without motive to create. Consequently, a perfect God would not do so.

There are a number of fallacious ideas here:

Firstly, is the assumptiom that action are only done to fulfill the selfish need of the person undertaking them. The idea here is that we only do something because we ourselves desire or gain something from them. This is the typical argument from those that discount altruism or charity - who argue that the only reason people do charity is because it makes them feel good or such, not from trying to help others. This merely amounts to a fallacy of appeal to motive; that such a motive can be envisioned, and therefore assuming it always operative.

Decision making is complex, and assuming that motives are readily available for all actions is not a proven statement (even less ascribing it to a presumed supreme being). For example, do you have motive for breathing? No, it is involuntary, though can be voluntarily controlled if need be. It is merely an action undertaken by the very nature of our organic life. We have no psychologic motive for it, though it is done in order to undergo cellular respiration, but describing why something occurs is not necessarily giving motive to it, rather a description of what has in fact occured - which can perhaps be termed Physiologic motive. We have motive to continue to do so if we want to live, or to cease if we want to die, but the action largely takes place without conscious psychologic motive.
Even then, we haven't established that altruism occurs out of any need or want of the undertaker thereof. Many, if not all, examples can be cited of altruism being damaging, of no advantage to the altruist - though a fallacious 'it makes him feel good to do so' can always be assumed. Even more nebulous concepts like duty or honour or faith can be roped in, and discounted as being societal constructs. All of these are still assuming the motives of the altruist on little more than possibly specious grounds.

For God as a perfect being, this makes even less sense. It is a anthropomorphisation of God, for it assumes a Perfect God would have similar psychology to men. A selfish God that only acts for its own gain, would not be a Perfect God per defitionem. Selfishness is not a normal aspect of Perfection. So in essence, to ascribe such an axiomatic proposition to God, in order to disprove Perfection, is a form of circular reasoning or erecting a strawman. A selfish God simply cannot be perfect, so selfishness cannot follow from perfection, and no theist when calling God thus, would accept that such motives would be applicable.
Rather, if we assume a God as a creator, the idea that creation flows from Him out of pure Joy or Love or Plenty, would make more sense from a Christian viewpoint.
This would be the equivalent of a Father sharing what he has with his children, or if you are sitting around a campfire in contentment and then inviting others nearby to join. In either case one can appeal to motive, to a father's genetic interest in his offspring or pleasures, or to looking for company - this is true, but neither imply a lack of something that was present in the sharer, rather a lack elsewhere. Or perhaps Perfection lies in the ability to share, to be altruistic, to love, which we see implied in the relationship within the Trinity between the Persons. For Love implies relation, you must love something, you cannot simply love. God is perfect in that He is completing us imperfect beings, who become perfect-in-Christ eventually.
Anyway, from the perspective of us as Created beings, a being that would not have brought us into existence, cannot be perceived as a perfect one - without assuming that there is lack of worth in our own existence. That would be a very sad philosophy to hold, a philosophy of self-hatred.

Perhaps creation is simply an aspect of being Perfect - a being that fails to create more than itself cannot be perfect, as it is sterile and non-creative, perhaps selfish. A being that cannot share the inherent Good thereof, is not Good, is not Perfect, but rather an example of selfish solipsism. A bit circular the reasoning here, but a perfect being needs to be a Creator to be Perfect. So while in perfection God would have no needs, nothing lacking, it does not mean that creation does not flow naturally as an aspect of that Perfection - akin perhaps to my 'physiologic motive' within the nature of God.

Part of the problem here is that many Christians insist upon a cause and effect nature of reality....and propose god as a cause for the universe.

Creating a universe however, is an effect, and therefore needs a cause. If one is claiming that a universe didn't exist, then was caused to exist by a god, then logically....there must be a cause for god creating a universe.

That creates a need for a motive....without which the whole cause/effect idea is worthless. As you've outlined above, creating a motive for an all powerful all knowing entity is difficult. Motives generally fall under 2 categories....wants and needs. An all knowing all powerful god cannot logically have wants or needs...I dare you to even try to conceive of any.

As for your "breathing" example...I'd argue that actually falls under needs, but let's imagine for a moment that it doesn't. Let's imagine for a moment that "creating a universe" is a sort of unconscious function of a god, like breathing or a bowel movement lol.

Does that make sense as an explanation for your Christian god either? I'd argue it doesn't, as it makes god only a universe creator and nothing else. He would still lack for any reason to interact with his universe in any meaningful way.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Motives generally fall under 2 categories....wants and needs. An all knowing all powerful god cannot logically have wants or needs...I dare you to even try to conceive of any.
This is the very fallacy I was referring to in the OP, assuming that the possibilty of a selfish motive implies that it must be so, and thus assuming something would only act to fulfill their own need or want. I mentioned altruistic motives, Plenty, etc. in the OP itself, though. This is a statement that itself stands in need of proof, that motive requires need or wants for the person itself - I don't think this valid deductively.

Further, Cause/Effect doesn't imply motive either, unless you are anthropomorphising. Water causes a depression underneath a waterfall, but there is no motive there, unless you are imputing an teleological endpoint for the water. My example of God creating simply by the bountiful nature of God was the point of my breathing example, that an effect may follow from the cause without conscious motive, but merely from the Nature - so no fulfilling of want or need is even necessary in such an hypothesis. It would not be something God required for His being, but just what naturally would flow from being Perfect - which implies being Creative, I would maintain. It would be implicit in His being.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This is the very fallacy I was referring to in the OP, assuming that the possibilty of a selfish motive implies that it must be so, and thus assuming something would only act to fulfill their own need or want. I mentioned altruistic motives, Plenty, etc. in the OP itself, though. This is a statement that itself stands in need of proof, that motive requires need or wants for the person itself - I don't think this valid deductively.

I addressed the only motive that I saw in the OP. What are "altruistic motives"?

Because I know what altruism is...and I know what motives are...but using a descriptor like "altruistic" on motives isn't the same as giving a motive. If I were a lawyer and I was prosecuting a criminal...."criminalistic motives" isn't an explanation for anything.

Can you give an actual motive for creating a universe?

Further, Cause/Effect doesn't imply motive either, unless you are anthropomorphising.

We are talking about a being that thinks and chooses....are we not? He has both sentience and agency?


Water causes a depression underneath a waterfall, but there is no motive there, unless you are imputing an teleological endpoint for the water.

But there is a cause and effect relationship there.

My example of God creating simply by the bountiful nature of God was the point of my breathing example, that an effect may follow from the cause without conscious motive, but merely from the Nature - so no fulfilling of want or need is even necessary in such an hypothesis.

That would destroy any attempt to argue that god created the universe for a reason.

At that point, mankind is just an afterthought at best....at worst, never intended at all.
 
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I addressed the only motive that I saw in the OP. What are "altruistic motives"?

Because I know what altruism is...and I know what motives are...but using a descriptor like "altruistic" on motives isn't the same as giving a motive. If I were a lawyer and I was prosecuting a criminal...."criminalistic motives" isn't an explanation for anything.

Can you give an actual motive for creating a universe?
Love of man? It is difficult to give motive to a Supreme Being, but the point is that such motives need not be for the gain of said Supreme Being. To ascribe that it must be, is simply an application of a known fallacy.

We are talking about a being that thinks and chooses....are we not? He has both sentience and agency?
Presumably.

But there is a cause and effect relationship there.
But no motive to water, yes, unless we apply a teleological approach or Final Cause idea, which even then does not imply motive as conventionally understood.


That would destroy any attempt to argue that god created the universe for a reason.

At that point, mankind is just an afterthought at best....at worst, never intended at all.
I disagree. Please explain your reasoning. How does this destroy reason behind creation? Even if a natural outgrowth of the nature of God, that doesn't mean it unreasoned or unwilled. In fact, as I said earlier, their is precious little difference between what God wills, creates, or what simply Is - I AM that I AM and all that.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Love of man? It is difficult to give motive to a Supreme Being, but the point is that such motives need not be for the gain of said Supreme Being. To ascribe that it must be, is simply an application of a known fallacy.

The "appeal to motive" fallacy is one involving the motive of the person making an argument. In this case, you or me....it doesn't apply here. I'm not questioning your motives.

As for "love of man" that's a feeling...and one an omnipotent all good god has and can experience without any actual humans. We're still lacking any motive...and yes, it is difficult...that's the point being made here.

I certainly can't come up with one that makes any sense.

Presumably.

But no motive to water, yes, unless we apply a teleological approach or Final Cause idea, which even then does not imply motive as conventionally understood.

It's a bad analogy because you aren't arguing that universe creation is an unconscious function of a god.

I disagree. Please explain your reasoning. How does this destroy reason behind creation? Even if a natural outgrowth of the nature of God, that doesn't mean it unreasoned or unwilled. In fact, as I said earlier, their is precious little difference between what God wills, creates, or what simply Is - I AM that I AM and all that.

You're using unconscious behavior that lacks any reason as an analogy.....breathing.

If you're claiming that a universe is simply a byproduct of a god....for lack of a better word, a sort of bowel movement of god....then it's not a choice, it's simply what a god must do.
 
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The "appeal to motive" fallacy is one involving the motive of the person making an argument. In this case, you or me....it doesn't apply here. I'm not questioning your motives.

As for "love of man" that's a feeling...and one an omnipotent all good god has and can experience without any actual humans. We're still lacking any motive...and yes, it is difficult...that's the point being made here.

I certainly can't come up with one that makes any sense.
No, you asserting that other motivations than the ones you presume cannot exist, or that the mere possibility of such motivations make them therefore operable - that is the fallacy. Inability to articulate them doesn't mean they aren't there, and I gave examples that I think perfectly adequate in the OP - and some are even traditional, like Abundance of God. The argument I adressed in the OP was that a Perfect God would not have motive to create, which is assuming all possible motivations accounted for.
It's a bad analogy because you aren't arguing that universe creation is an unconscious function of a god.
You asserted cause and effect implies motive. I pointed out it does not by proffering an example. I made no analogy. I hold creation a function of God, but unconscious or conscious means nothing when discussing the idea of an omnipotent being. The distinction adds no value, as God would be Consciousness itself, and no unconcious function would make sense, but neither does this mean that conscious motivation need precede conscious function.
You're using unconscious behavior that lacks any reason as an analogy.....breathing.

If you're claiming that a universe is simply a byproduct of a god....for lack of a better word, a sort of bowel movement of god....then it's not a choice, it's simply what a god must do.
That is not what I claimed though. Breathing does not lack reason, but lacks conscious motivation that we need to keep in mind or articulate. Breathing has a perfectly good reason to occur, and no one would cease breathing if it required such. That was my point. Besides it is not a perfect analogy, hence I used words like 'perhaps' and 'akin to'. So to say no conscious motivation means no action is false, especially if that action is perhaps an aspect of the Perfect Nature itself, as I suggest it is.

As to it not being a choice, in what way? An omnipotent being the difference between what is Willed and what Is disappears. Just because a specific choice is chosen, does not mean it is not a choice. Please see my discussion with Nicholas Deka above regarding this, as it is easier than rehashing the argument again.
 
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Can you give an actual motive for creating a universe?
We are talking about a being that thinks and chooses....are we not? He has both sentience and agency?
That would destroy any attempt to argue that god created the universe for a reason.
At that point, mankind is just an afterthought at best....at worst, never intended at all.

We don't really understand our nature as sentient beings, and we have only functional models of reality that don't really dive into metaphysical constructs. Whatever we label as reason and motive is a product of observing our own behaviors and giving these labels.

Assuming that metaphysics of God works on the same level as ours is as problematic as assuming that computers work like our minds do.

So, you can't really project your perception on reason to some metaphysical context. Likewise, if God exists, why would you think that any of us would be in position to judge such transcendent entity from the vantage point of our limited understanding?
 
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We don't really understand our nature as sentient beings, and we have only functional models of reality that don't really dive into metaphysical constructs. Whatever we label as reason and motive is a product of observing our own behaviors and giving these labels.

Assuming that metaphysics of God works on the same level as ours is as problematic as assuming that computers work like our minds do.

So, you can't really project your perception on reason to some metaphysical context. Likewise, if God exists, why would you think that any of us would be in position to judge such transcendent entity from the vantage point of our limited understanding?

Well that is what we're doing every time we claim that "god is all good" or "god is perfect" or "god loves you" or my favorite "god wants a personal relationship with you".

Now, if you want to say that god is so vastly different from us that such things cannot be known or understood....that's fine...but it leaves your god a completely unknowable entity that just creates a universe.
 
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Well that is what we're doing every time we claim that "god is all good" or "god is perfect" or "god loves you" or my favorite "god wants a personal relationship with you".

Now, if you want to say that god is so vastly different from us that such things cannot be known or understood....that's fine...but it leaves your god a completely unknowable entity that just creates a universe.

...................it beats having God "show up" and make Psalm 2 a reality, don't you think? I had a dream like that once, and to say the least, it was rather discomfiting. It made the movie Minority Report look like a cake-walk.
 
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No, you asserting that other motivations than the ones you presume cannot exist, or that the mere possibility of such motivations make them therefore operable - that is the fallacy. Inability to articulate them doesn't mean they aren't there, and I gave examples that I think perfectly adequate in the OP - and some are even traditional, like Abundance of God. The argument I adressed in the OP was that a Perfect God would not have motive to create, which is assuming all possible motivations accounted for.

Abundance of god is a rather vague concept...but I didn't see any version of it that could be called a motive.

I'm not denying the possibility of a motive...I'm saying that I can't conceive of one. So far, you haven't been able to either....

As for your "inability to articulate"....I get that there may be a motive that you just haven't found the words for yet....but that's an empty claim until you do. It would be like if I said...."I have evidence god doesn't exist, I just don't have the words for it yet."

I may be telling the truth....but until I find the words, no one has any reason to believe me.

You asserted cause and effect implies motive.

It absolutely does if we're talking about a conscious choice....and we are.

As to it not being a choice, in what way? An omnipotent being the difference between what is Willed and what Is disappears.

I don't care if you call it "willing" or "choosing"....semantic wordplay won't dance you around the concepts here.
 
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Abundance of god is a rather vague concept...but I didn't see any version of it that could be called a motive.

I'm not denying the possibility of a motive...I'm saying that I can't conceive of one. So far, you haven't been able to either....
What are you talking about? I gave multiple possible motives in the OP itself! From Love to Plenty, etc. Altruism is a perfectly acceptable motive in my opinion. Assuming it can't possibly be a motive, is one of the fallacious positions addressed in the OP, too.
As for your "inability to articulate"
This was a general comment, not me specifically, as to why such assumption of lack of motive would remain fallacious.

It absolutely does if we're talking about a conscious choice....and we are.
I pointed out that motive need not precede cause, nor does that motive nor choice need be conscious, nor that conscious or unconscious is a valid duality for God. That was the whole point of the extended respiration explanation. I don't understand what your objection is, unless you are simply ignoring everything I said.

I don't care if you call it "willing" or "choosing"....semantic wordplay won't dance you around the concepts here.
I agree. So it makes little difference. Again, what is the point you are trying to make, or the objection you think you are raising? I am not seeing a counter argument, merely restating of what I was previously responding to.
 
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Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
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...................it beats having God "show up" and make Psalm 2 a reality, don't you think? I had a dream like that once, and to say the least, it was rather discomfiting. It made the movie Minority Report look like a cake-walk.

I don't think "fear of an angry god" is a valid reason for believing.
 
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