Apostles/Nicene Creed & virgin Mary & Communion of the Saints

A_JAY

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I've been attending a Lutheran church for the past year. I did not come from a tradition that used the creeds at all.

I believe scripture when it says that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. I do not believe that Mary, Jesus' mother was eternal virgin, or watches over the city of Rome, or was born sinless.

Does the "Communion of the Saints" imply that one can pray to the saints and they can listen? I don't believe that either.

The Pastor of this Church seems to be using Hebrews 12 as prooftext.
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us....."etc

I am not wanting a debate on those subjects, but I have been saying the creeds believing my interpretations can fall into general small o orthodox beliefs. Am I mistaken?

Can a person with my beliefs say those creeds and be honest in saying them?

Thank you.



 

tampasteve

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In general, Lutheranism believes that the "Communion of Saints" means that they exist, they are in Heaven communing with God and each other. Whether they can hear us or not is another matter and there is no set belief as there is in Catholicism. The general statement would be that we can pray direct to Jesus/God, so there is no need to pray to Saint xyz, however, it is certainly possible that they saints are praying for us anyway. I believe that this is one of the areas left more to the personal interpretation.

If one wants to pray to Saint Joseph for help, have at it, but we do not know if he will hear our prayers. Some people find comfort in praying to saints for help as well as praying to Jesus, something akin to asking a friend to pray for you while you are also praying for yourself.

Praying to saints and believing in a communion of saints that can hear us is not really set beliefs, that is one pastor's opinions, but perhaps someone else can help clarify if I am incorrect.

As for Mary, Lutheranism is fairly wide on what you "can believe" in the USA the ELCA has a official belief that she was ever virgin, but I doubt you would find many parishes that keep to that. The LCMS believes it is possible either way. I also doubt many Lutherans would believe she watches over Rome, that is really a Catholic belief, not many Lutherans look to Rome in that manner.
 
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OrthodoxLady1994

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I've been attending a Lutheran church for the past year. I did not come from a tradition that used the creeds at all.

I believe scripture when it says that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. I do not believe that Mary, Jesus' mother was eternal virgin, or watches over the city of Rome, or was born sinless.

Does the "Communion of the Saints" imply that one can pray to the saints and they can listen? I don't believe that either.

The Pastor of this Church seems to be using Hebrews 12 as prooftext.
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us....."etc

I am not wanting a debate on those subjects, but I have been saying the creeds believing my interpretations can fall into general small o orthodox beliefs. Am I mistaken?

Can a person with my beliefs say those creeds and be honest in saying them?

Thank you.



Originally when a lot of these prayers and Creeds were written, the word "pray" also just meant to "ask". When you "pray" to a saint, what you are really doing is asking them to pray with and for you to God. The communion of the Saints implies that Jesus actually did conquer the grave and that those who have left this world are not really dead but are alive with Him. Therefore they remain part of Christ's body the Church.

Does that help?
 
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A_JAY

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Originally when a lot of these prayers and Creeds were written, the word "pray" also just meant to "ask". When you "pray" to a saint, what you are really doing is asking them to pray with and for you to God. The communion of the Saints implies that Jesus actually did conquer the grave and that those who have left this world are not really dead but are alive with Him. Therefore they remain part of Christ's body the Church.

Does that help?

That helps. Thanks Tampa Steve and OrthodoxLady. It appears that the examples above of virgin Mary and Communion of the Saints are non-essential beliefs in the Lutheran denominations. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed generally mean the same thing across the "universal and catholic" church.
 
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Tangible

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The Book of Concord actually has quite a bit to say regarding the invocation of the saints.
Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
Smalcald Articles - Book of Concord

It has been said that the whole of the Hail Mary prayer may easily be redeemed by simply adding an "s" after "pray". We gladly confess that St Mary prays for us, but we should never address her directly petitioning her to pray for us. See the difference?

On the other hand, the BoC assumes that Lutherans will hold to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. http://www.whymarymatters.com/archives/33
 
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ViaCrucis

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To briefly add to what's been said already:

Lutherans believe the saints and angels pray for us. But we do not believe it is appropriate to ask the saints and angels to pray for us. As for why it boils down, largely to two points which are addressed to varying degrees in the Book of Concord (which Tangible linked above):

1) Prayer should be made with faith and confidence, we are confident that God hears our prayers because He has specifically said so; whether or not the saints can hear us when we ask for their prayers is unknown (it's not revealed to us one way or the other). If we can't have that confidence when we pray, then it is best to side on caution.

2) There is the danger that this practice, without proper education and teaching of the Christian faithful, might give them the wrong understanding, leading to the risk of idolizing the saints rather than revering them--and to do so would be in violation of the commandment to worship God alone and would be a dishonor to the saints themselves whose witness and holy memory points always to Christ, not to themselves.*

From this the Lutheran position has been to caution against and not engage in this particular practice, even though it is an old and pious practice of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

*This doesn't mean that our Catholic and Orthodox brethren are worshiping the saints when they ask for their prayers, only that we believe there is a risk of engendering wrong beliefs among the Faithful without proper and careful teaching and that abuses are easy to flow from this lack of education.
 
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LizaMarie

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The Book of Concord actually has quite a bit to say regarding the invocation of the saints.
Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord
Smalcald Articles - Book of Concord

It has been said that the whole of the Hail Mary prayer may easily be redeemed by simply adding an "s" after "pray". We gladly confess that St Mary prays for us, but we should never address her directly petitioning her to pray for us. See the difference?

On the other hand, the BoC assumes that Lutherans will hold to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. The Book of Concord on Mariology
Wow thanks for these articles.
 
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