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Apostasy

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by OrthodoxWanderer, May 23, 2021.

  1. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

    +3,853
    Eastern Orthodox
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    This is very interesting. Why do you think that personal holiness is easier as a Muslim?[/QUOTE]
    Hi there!
    I did say “make a good Muslim”, though of course, they have a conception of holiness as well.
    One has to speak in generalities, and bear in mind that there a spectrum of beliefs, as in Christianity, but that there is also an identifiable core which is non-negotiable, whatever individuals or even while divisions such as Sunni, Shiite, or Sufi might claim. In Christianity, it would be, for instance, that Jesus Christ is in fact God, the Holy Trinity in the Second Person, or that we must repent and be baptized, and go on repenting.
    So I am speaking about that core.
    Islam is a dualistic religion. That means that they have teachings that openly contradict each other, not paradoxes, but flat-out contradictions. Thus a given division will claim that such-and-such a text in the Koran is superseded by a later text. And so the Muslim can find texts that tell him to love his neighbor, and even the Christian and Jew as “people of the book” at least, and also texts that tell him to persecute and destroy the Kafir, which includes Christians and Jews that reject and oppose, do not submit to, Islam. And nowhere does Islam teach that one is to love one’s enemies. It is a concept that has never been accepted by that historical core of Islam, and is not supported in their sacred texts. Thus, personal holiness is easier from the get-go. A Muslim might have to bear a cross for a fellow Muslim, and even, perhaps, feel compelled to bear one for “people of the book”, but not for enemies who do not submit to Allah.

    The Christian is commanded to love one’s enemies. We frequently disobey, but that is our mandate. That makes it harder for us; we have a higher and harder standard of holiness.
     
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  2. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    But yes, that is the whole point. Those few exceptions mean everything. You have to judge a religion, not by its rank-and-file, which tend to be nominal believers, especially when the religion is legal and people are free to practice it (or not), but by its saints and martyrs, those who fulfill its commandments.
    So yes, most of us suck eggs. But it truly is better to be in a land of hypocrites, where people know the standard and do not uphold it, than in one where they have no conception of the standard. Where the truth is, you will also find hypocrites. The truth tells them they need to change their own lives. And few are really willing to do that.
     
  3. SeraphimSarov

    SeraphimSarov Пресвятая Богородица, спаси нас...

    +560
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    Celibate
    So what do we do with all of the other religions who have such people? I find the Buddha quite interesting, for example, even if I find Buddhism's unwillingness to engage the question of a Creator rather unsavory.
     
  4. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    Well, we should desire the Truth, the most complete form of Truth that we as humans can comprehend, and then strive to live by it.
    What do I do with the others? Well, I think there are two curious things about Christianity which really make it stand out.
    One is the command to love one's enemies. The other is the fact of the Christian martyrs. You can find commands to love in general, to be kind, to lay down your life for your friends or even your religion. But those two things, generally speaking, you will not find anywhere else.
    I agree with CS Lewis that Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man" as a book makes it really difficult to deny the challenge posed by history itself, and by Christ and the martyrs, that the other religions cannot answer. And Lewis was an atheist when he picked up GK's book in 1925.

    The Everlasting Man

    But books are a challenge that fewer and fewer can take up. We have ceased to be a people that reads books. My mother could not master the book (if she ever even tried) and turned to Islam.

    Anyway, that's just one approach, but I think it very useful. And I assure you, I have been very nearly at the end of my rope, and quite recently, in regards to faith. I would say that I am by no means entirely rescued from that state, but I do find these things help me not to give up. Plenty of people in the Church are mad, but the world is much madder.
     
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  5. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

    +2,367
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    That's because there is no difference between christians and the "world". We make up the majority of those societies precisely because they are our societies.
    Christianity is now just a domesticated arm of the secular humanist society that has succeeded it. The old school structures of extended family and a common more monolithic more close knit culture has been bypassed for the safety nets and social institutions run by government. Even the so called social gospel relies on the need for ongoing suffering instead of a gospel that takes over, transforms and overcomes. Social gospel christians prey on the impoverished many of whom are in that position due to the now absent christian culture and morals which if present would have safeguarded most from the position they're in altogether. Social gospel christians see the impoverished as their domesticated pets, who need to rely on them for survival. A form of sadism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  6. E.C.

    E.C. Well-Known Member

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    Is anyone else surprised at rusmeister making a "Finding Nemo" reference? :holy:

    People hated Elder Ephraim either because they were mad that their Greek-American children wanted to be monastics instead of doctors, bankers, lawyers, or engineers. Or, frankly, some of his followers and spiritual children are/were a bit wacko. Seraphim of Platina's issues are mainly from either his stance on tollhouses (Bishop Lazar in British Columbia was particularly anti-tollhouse and left ROCOR over it) or because, well, when Fr. Seraphim died his successor was a pedophile who left canonical Orthodoxy and took the monastery with it. It didn't return to canonical Orthodoxy until the early 2000s under the Serbs and he died some years later never facing any punishments over it. Some people have heartburn over it.
     
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  7. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Fr Herman (Fr Seraphim's successor) did return to the Church before he died and was laicized.
     
  8. Justin-H.S.

    Justin-H.S. New Wineskins

    915
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    Haafu?
     
  9. SamanthaAnastasia

    SamanthaAnastasia Just a library lady

    652
    +639
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    Eastern Orthodox
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    lol it’s a wee bit more complicated than that.
    My paternal grandfather was Korean and Japanese who immigrated. My paternal grandmother was Cherokee born on a reservation. Dad was stationed on Torii but we lived on Kadena because Torii had no living areas for families. My mom’s mother is a German immigrant and her dads side is Scandinavian, Scottish, Irish, and English.

    so I suppose Hapa would describe me more than Hāfu
     
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  10. Justin-H.S.

    Justin-H.S. New Wineskins

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    Small world. I was born and raised on a mainland Navy base. I'm haafu.
     
  11. gzt

    gzt The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years

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    Oh, no, he (the successor in question) sexually assaulted teenage boys.
     
  12. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

    +2,325
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    US-Others
    Uh, that's actually Dory the blue fish, and "Just keep swimming" was her mantra. :sorry: :oldthumbsup:
     
  13. Dorothea

    Dorothea One of God's handmaidens

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    Yeah, a little. ^_^
     
  14. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    +8,847
    Australia
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    Married
    More so because Dory is voiced by Ellen Degenerate.
     
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