Apophatic Prayer & Meditation

[JM]

Apophatic prayer has been a great blessing to me over the last 20 years and at different times I found that kataphatic prayer at times, can increased stress and anxiety. I'm guessing this is probably due to a strain of legalism running through my Spirit...but I digress. The mental chatter that often accompanies kataphatic prayer, especially at this point in my Christian life, leaves me restless and close to incapable of worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone else on the forum have similar experiences?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I also tend toward apophatic prayer, wordless, imageless prayer. Just sitting in silence, awake and alert, waiting, listening.

So my experience of God is pretty abstract. I have come to accept that. Not many warm fuzzy experiences.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Apophatic prayer has been a great blessing to me over the last 20 years and at different times I found that kataphatic prayer at times, can increased stress and anxiety. I'm guessing this is probably due to a strain of legalism running through my Spirit...but I digress. The mental chatter that often accompanies kataphatic prayer, especially at this point in my Christian life, leaves me restless and close to incapable of worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone else on the forum have similar experiences?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Still there? Still meditating.

Do you get to moments of inner silence? Alert stillness?

 

[JM]

Still there? Still meditating.

Do you get to moments of inner silence? Alert stillness?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Feel like you might be the only one in the world doing it?

 

[JM]

Feel like you might be the only one in the world doing it?

I've been told it's more common than most Christians think.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've been told it's more common than most Christians think.

I think this is probably true.

Many people tend not to discuss such things very freely.

 

[JM]

I think this is probably true.

Many people tend not to discuss such things very freely.

I spoke with a Catholic Priest about it and he confirmed it was not unusual. Crazy thing is...I explained the same experiences to a Zen Priest and he also confirmed it was not unusual.

This causes me to pause.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I spoke with a Catholic Priest about it and he confirmed it was not unusual. Crazy thing is...I explained the same experiences to a Zen Priest and he also confirmed it was not unusual.

This causes me to pause.

Yes ... there is certainly a place to be aware of various kinds of spiritual experiences and how they compare between Christianity and non-Christianity, and some reasons why.

This is why we place great value on having an experienced spiritual father - there really are a lot of pitfalls.

Perhaps one reason why people tend not to talk freely.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There are good books though that address some things. They are NOT meant to take the place of an adviser though.

 

[JM]

The Lord's Prayer by Watson

The Valley of Vision

Gleanings From Paul by Pink

Method of Prayer by Henry

 

[Spherical]

Well, whenever I do my hour of prayer, I start with silence. About 15 to 20 minutes after, I start praying for specific people or things, and then a moment of giving God thanks, praise, and worship, usually ending with another moment of silent prayer. I like to combine the two, but apophatic prayer tends to be predominant.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I don't try to pray in images, but sometimes when I'm asking God something or he is trying to caution me, an image will pop in my mind, sometimes unsettling if it's something I need to be aware of or cautious of.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I do better after coffee. Otherwise it is not long before I start nodding and dreamy images come.

 

[FireDragon76]

Still there? Still meditating.

Do you get to moments of inner silence? Alert stillness?

I have a background in mindfulness (Thich Nhat Hanh's lineage of Buddhism), and I sometimes did something similar as a Christian, too. Not for long periods, though. When people pray at church in the prayers of the people, I try to get into that state of mind.

I'm doing alot of reading right now on Zen and getting back into that (I also have a book by Jim Pym). It has been a struggle to get back into sitting because sitting for more than ten or twelve minutes is hard for me (but it wasn't before, twelve years ago, when I meditated alot). I start noticing difficult feelings coming up that unsettle me, primarily it feels like tension.

I have a really hard time as of late in a Lutheran church because there is so little guidance on spirituality. It seems Lutherans idea of spirituality is banality. There is a Garrison Keillor joke, "Lutherans believe in prayer, though only sometimes out loud", and this is very true. I've just sort of absorbed an anti-introspective attitude as a Lutheran. To the point sometimes it feels like a detriment, especially as I started developing problems with over-eating and gaining weight (something I have never had happen before). So I have decided to stop trying to be a "good Lutheran" and go with what seems to work for me.

Getting back into meditation and working with biofeedback (I use an emWave, which is a cool little machine that senses heart rate); it's helped me lose a little weight as I become more mindful of my eating habits and it's helped me to stay motivated to go to the gymn and get in some walking on the treadmill. I find more moments of contentment, too, whereas I realize before I had alot of rumination going on in my head.

 

[Hieronymus]

I spoke with a Catholic Priest about it and he confirmed it was not unusual. Crazy thing is...I explained the same experiences to a Zen Priest and he also confirmed it was not unusual.

This causes me to pause.

It should.

 

[FireDragon76]

It should.

There are some Christians that have experience with Zen. The Benedictine Br. David Stendahl-Rast, for instance.

I watched a documentary about Br. David on youtube. He's the real deal. He talked about spending alot of time washing dishes in the monastery and the importance that had for him in his spiritual life, and I was reminded alot of Br. Lawrence, another Benedictine, who had similar experiences.

I have a book on Center Prayer, and it has a quote by one of the desert fathers on contemplative prayer, and he's also seemingly speaking of the same thing- mindfulness. So I think the similarities are not all that surprising. The metaphysics may be different, but the experiences aren't necessarily.

 

[Hieronymus]

There are some Christians that have experience with Zen. The Benedictine Br. David Stendahl-Rast, for instance.

I watched a documentary about Br. David on youtube. He's the real deal. He talked about spending alot of time washing dishes in the monastery and the importance that had for him in his spiritual life, and I was reminded alot of Br. Lawrence, another Benedictine, who had similar experiences.

I have a book on Center Prayer, and it has a quote by one of the desert fathers on contemplative prayer, and he's also seemingly speaking of the same thing- mindfulness. So I think the similarities are not all that surprising. The metaphysics may be different, but the experiences aren't necessarily.

I oppose normalizing pagan spirituality and experience based religion among Christians.
God is not a drug.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I rather see a common thread that has to do with reflection, deeper self, world and God understanding, and even healing. I think the Lord has been at work across cultures and ages so I look for the good instead of condemning what may be unfamiliar to me.

 

[FireDragon76]

I rather see a common thread that has to do with reflection, deeper self, world and God understanding, and even healing. I think the Lord has been at work across cultures and ages so I look for the good instead of condemning what may be unfamiliar to me.

They are juggling around some of the same existential anxieties we all share, having been on both sides of the fence. What makes sense to you and speaks to you is going to vary from culture to culture and individual to individual.