MysticMonist

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I apologize for my previous thread going off track.
John chapter 3 clearly states throughout the chapter that those who accept Christ as God are in the Light and those who don’t accept are lost in complete darkness. According to the writer of John, there can be no real experiences of the presence of God outside of Christanity (or perhaps Judaism as Paul argues in Romans). Is this a correct interpretation?
In my mind, without the innerancy of the gospel of John, Christian teaching on the trinity has no real basis.
 

brinny

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I apologize for my previous thread going off track.
John chapter 3 clearly states throughout the chapter that those who accept Christ as God are in the Light and those who don’t accept are lost in complete darkness. According to the writer of John, there can be no real experiences of the presence of God outside of Christanity (or perhaps Judaism as Paul argues in Romans). Is this a correct interpretation?
In my mind, without the innerancy of the gospel of John, Christian teaching on the trinity has no real basis.

It's those who accept Jesus the Christ the only begotten Son of the living God, Who shed His blood, dying on the cross, who are saved from the wrath of a holy God. That is why He did as described in the verse below, so that no one would face this wrath of a holy God. Pure grace. Rejecting this grace is a slap in the face to a holy God, as is maligning His only begotten son, Who shed His blood and died for us.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16
 
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MysticMonist

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It's those who accept Jesus the Christ the only begotten Son of the living God, Who shed His blood, dying on the cross, who are saved from the wrath of a holy God. That is why He did as described in the verse below, so that no one would face this wrath of a holy God. Pure grace. Rejecting this grace is a slap in the face to a holy God, as is maligning His only begotten son, Who shed His blood and died for us.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~John 3:16

Yes, exactly. John I think is quite clear. Liberal Christains who say God or salvation can be found outside faith in Jesus as an atoning God are in conflict with scripture (and not just prooftexts, but at least one gospel).

I’m going to work thru Paul’s epistles and I’m confident he supports this same position of no light outside the trinitarian Christ. There’s no liberal middle ground.
 
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brinny

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Yes, exactly. John I think is quite clear. Liberal Christains who say God or salvation can be found outside faith in Jesus as an atoning God are in conflict with scripture (and not just prooftexts, but at least one gospel).

I’m going to work thru Paul’s epistles and I’m confident he supports this same position of no light outside the trinitarian Christ. There’s no liberal middle ground.

There is only what is written in God's Word. Would you care to elaborate on what you mean by "light"?
 
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brinny

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This comes to mind:

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." ~Luke 9:26
 
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Albion

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In my mind, without the innerancy of the gospel of John, Christian teaching on the trinity has no real basis.
The teaching of and belief in the Trinity is based upon a number of different verses, though, more of them than most people think.
 
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MysticMonist

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There is only what is written in God's Word. Would you care to elaborate on what you mean by "light"?
I should be careful in my wording. Though I may mean many things by Light, in this conversation I only want to mean this in the sense John does. Jesus is the Light. Those who accept him are in His Light, those who do not are in deep darkness.
 
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MysticMonist

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This comes to mind:

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." ~Luke 9:26

This verse talks of Jesus as the “Son of Man” the exaulted prophet and messiah, not necessarily God.
 
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brinny

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I should be careful in my wording. Though I may mean many things by Light, in this conversation I only want to mean this in the sense John does. Jesus is the Light. Those who accept him are in His Light, those who do not are in deep darkness.

Those who accept the divine and only begotten Son of the living God are saved from God's holy wrath. As it is written, they are "in" Him.

I asked, because of the "false light" that is written about that is a counterfeit.
 
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brinny

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This verse talks of Jesus as the “Son of Man” the exaulted prophet and messiah, not necessarily God.

In his status, He came as the son of man, but no less divine. As it is written He is the Alpha and the Omega, Almighty God, Everlasting Father.
 
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MysticMonist

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Those who accept the divine and only begotten Son of the living God are saved from God's holy wrath. As it is written, they are "in" Him.

I asked, because of the "false light" that is written about that is a counterfeit.
What verse talks about false light? Do you have it handy? If not I’ll google it I’m sure. Thanks helpful thanks.
 
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MysticMonist

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In his status, He came as the son of man, but no less divine. As it is written He is the Alpha and the Omega, Almighty God, Everlasting Father.
Christains believe He is both the Son of Man (the messiah) and the Only Son of God (as nicene creed says) emphasis on only, since we are all sons and daughters of God. The creed means Divine Son.
 
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Albion

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As Brinny noted, there are a number of verses (from different parts of the NT) that show Christ to be divine or at least to be presenting himself as such. On this forum--Conservative Christianity--it shouldn't be necessary to argue the point at length.

And while a question directed to the members of the forum is in order, it is not permitted to come here to argue against Conservative Christian beliefs.
 
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brinny

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What verse talks about false light? Do you have it handy? If not I’ll google it I’m sure. Thanks helpful thanks.

I appreciate that you are willing to google it. Thank you.

This is, however, the verse(s) i'm referring to:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." ~II Corinthians 11:13-14
 
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MysticMonist

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Right, I agree so far we are on same page.
So... this is my argument and where we will disagree.
1. In the gospel of John, Paul’s epistles and the catholic catechism, all say that salvation and the light of God (which is Jesus) only come thru faith in Jesus as a trinitarian God.
2. Non-trinitarian and non-christains do truly experience the light of God outside of faith in Christ. They are not in darkness.
3. Therefore John, Paul, the catechism are wrong.
4. Since the major sources of authority for Jesus being divine are incorrect, Jesus is likely not God.

I make this argument for my own understanding. I don’t wish to dissuade any of you from your faith, simple refute the claim that I must believe.
 
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Albion

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3. Therefore John, Paul, the catechism are wrong.
4. Since the major sources of authority for Jesus being divine are incorrect, Jesus is likely not God.
There has been no evidence presented that would support either of those claims.
 
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MysticMonist

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There has been no evidence presented that would support either of those claims.
If 1 and 2 are true, 3 and 4 follow.
I would totally expect you all to object to 2. Which is fine. I know that I am not in darkness nor are many non-christains I known closely and shared their faith and journey.
 
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Albion

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If 1 and 2 are true, 3 and 4 follow.
That would have to be shown to be true.

I would totally expect you all to object to 2. Which is fine. I know that I am not in darkness nor are many non-christains I known closely and shared their faith and journey.
Fair enough. I am sure that there are forums which would take it up with you (or you, on their behalf). I think that the Christianity and World Religions forum exists for that purpose.
 
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A_Thinker

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If 1 and 2 are true, 3 and 4 follow.
I would totally expect you all to object to 2. Which is fine. I know that I am not in darkness nor are many non-christains I known closely and shared their faith and journey.

Number #1 may be true, only in regard to the Catholic catechism, ... of which I have little knowledge.

No scriptures REQUIRES belief in a Trinitarian God, ... though many scriptures present evidence for the trinitarian God concept. It is only by combining various scriptural texts that the Trinitarian God concept emerges ...

The scriptures are NOT a PRIMER on the existential nature of God (i.e. in what manner He exists).

The scriptures present the MESSAGE of God to humanity.
 
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