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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Okay. . .I am saying there is no conditional immortality presented in the NT. Both the redeemed and the damned are presented as living/conscious without end after the final judgment.
     
  2. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, you believe that everyone lives forever, whether they are saved or not?
     
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Yes, I think Jesus presents both the redeemed and the damned living without end after the judgment.

    Do you see anything else presented in the NT?
     
  4. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do see something else. The New Testament very consistently tells us that eternal life is ONLY for those who believe in Jesus. It never says, not once, that the unsaved will live forever. Here is one example:

    ESV John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Here is another example:
    ESV Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Eternal life is not about duration"? Honestly, do you know what eternal means? How can we even discuss this if words no longer have their meanings? If you ask almost any Christian how they know they will actually literally live forever, many of them would quote John 3:16 because it says we have eternal life. Are we all wrong? I view you as my sister in Christ. But what you are saying just doesn't make sense. Will you even change the meaning of "eternal life" to try to avoid saying you made a mistake when you said that the unsaved live forever?
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Let me correct that.

    Eternal life is God's own life given to the believer.

    Eternal death is absence of God's life, separation from God, for the unbeliever, it's not about being dead.

    Eternal is also unending, as the Kingdom of God is eternal (2 Peter 1:11), without end (Luke 3:3).

    Both union with God and separation from God are unending; i.e., eternal.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I would say that "eternal life" is not only about duration but also "quality."
     
  9. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clare, I've been studying this topic in some depth for over 10 years. One of the things that I love about conditional immortality is that words just have their normal meanings:
    death = loss of life; whatever is dead cannot feel, think, or know anything
    eternal life = living forever
    perish = means perish, like if your friend perished in the war; nothing mysterious and nothing that you need a theology degree to figure out
    burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6) can be taken literally, the lost will literally be burned to ashes

    I wish you would watch my video and at least think about it. God bless you.
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I think you just talked me into it.
    It's just that sometimes in the NT words don't have what to us today are normal meanings.

    As in Paul's use of "spiritual" never meaning non-physical, non-material.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  11. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    That's what we have his letter for. He is our closet relative and that's how we are to know him, his overall plan, etc.

    Quite the opposite actually, I used to believe as you did, in fact I was raised to believe in this doctrine. It wasn't until 20 some years ago when I finally took my walk with our Father seriously and first read and started studying the Bible that I first saw that this wasn't true from a biblical standpoint.

    When you take everything as a whole, the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in the Lake of Fire.


    Of course he does not see the soul being destroyed at the death of our flesh bodies. But he does teach everlasting destruction. No one has been sentenced to the Lake of Fire yet, that happens at Judgment Day. This is the second death.

    II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    As I mentioned to someone else, you believe they have eternal life as well but in hell.
     
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Eternal life is God's own everlasting life imparted to the believer.

    Eternal death/second death is the absence of God's (eternal) life for eternity, separation from God, not the absence of consciousness or spirit life.
     
  13. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No---it is not---it is only by grace. Works are because you are saved, not in order to be saved, It is out of love for God. Just as Jesus, it was always not my will but thine. Works will not save you, they are an indication you are saved. If you show no works, then you have not the love of God in you to do them and are not saved. It's like the rich young ruler, he had done everything he was supposed to---yet Jesus said one thing you lack, give all you have away and come join me. He went away sorrowfully for he had great possessions---everything he did was just because he had to, he lacked the love of God.
    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  14. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Where?
     
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    But for the fact that the word translated "perish" does NOT always mean; perish, destroy, annihilate etc.
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
    …..Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available
    = = = = = = = = = =

    ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
    to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
    α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
    β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
    ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
    α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
    β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
    1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
    to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
    to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
    ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
    Link to earlier edition. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    We read about in Scripture about a whole bunch of bad spirits inhabiting one person.
    We read about in Scripture about how God lives in the hearts of believers.
    So this means spirit beings are immaterial to our universe because they can pass through physical objects.

    Did you read the dictionary I gave you?
    It can also mean to destroy, or ruin.

    As for the destruction of the spirit:

    Jesus says, “And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28) (ABPE).

    So as the body can be killed, so the Lord Jesus can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Yet, Jesus does not destroy the spirit along with the soul and body? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. I think it is implied that if Jesus says for us to fear the One (Him) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire), I think the spirit would be naturally included in that. For what good is a spirit if the soul is destroyed?
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror,
    and never shalt thou be any more.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    "The literal reading is the least helpful." - Richard Rohr
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    There is an old adage about interpreting the Bible. "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
     
  20. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

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    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Eternal life is about being in relationship with God and His Christ, not about living forever.
     
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