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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you can prove Ultimate Redemption is true, you have proved the others false. You may be able to use scripture to support your doctrine, but Scripture only supports the truth. If your doctrine is false, so is your use of Scripture.
     
  2. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Yeah, that's a good point about faith, and I consider that and waffle between subscribing to it.
    I know you use the word "solely" but still I'm compelled to note that in 2021 we'd know nothing of seeking a relationship without the Bible.
    My sign on name, besides a play on words (see what I did there with the word thread?), reflects my current situation regarding my faith which took a turn for the worse a couple of years ago. God bless all of you who hear his voice. I used to think I did, but now I'm having a hard time distinguishing between his voice and my own thoughts telling me what I think God would say. So I turn to the Bible and run into the quandry you presented. Maybe I'm just not one of the chosen ones, I dunno. I feel like I've been a good Christian most of my life but in the last year and a half or so I somehow feel abandoned. I try not to, but I while use this site to search for answers, I suppose I also use it vent my frustrations. I certainly don't want to poison this place with my negativity so I probably owe you and all of the other fine people here an apology. I don't think I can promise it won't happen again, but I will promise to try.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    There really aren't any standardized doctrines for UR. No denomination either. But what you are saying happens even when there are standardized doctrines and a denomination. Not everyone will agree. I'm fine with that.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here is the problem with that from the perspective of UR. The Bible was translated with a Damnationist (PR) bias. You have probably seen some the discussion about aionios and such.

    On the other hand it is just a matter of POV. If you assume Damnationism (PR) is true, your read the Bible as a Damnationist (PR) text. And if believe UR is true you read it that way.

    Bottom line. Damnationists are always asking us to explain away their half dozen verses, but refuse to address our two dozen.
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I think you are awesome. Hang in there and don't worry about hearing God's voice. Follow your conscience and do what is right. I rarely hear the LOUD voice of God. When I do, I know who it is. I appreciate your honesty. We need more like you on the forum. You were brave to speak up. We have all been through tough stuff. Or most of us anyway. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat offline.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You claimed that the Bible never disagrees with itself. Does it agree on grace and works?

    If you want to know where the Bible disagrees with itself just ask the atheists, they'll be happy to tell you.

    Saint Steven said:
    Really? Are we saved by grace, or works?
     
  7. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Mark, I know you visit this site enough to know that if someone starts a thread asking "what does God require for salvation" (in fact, I believe someone may already have recently) you're gonna get a wide variety of answers. I guess I need to expound on my examples: Does God require us to follow the laws on duetoromy and leviticus or not (old vs new covenant). I presented this as a thread and there were several pages of responses/argumements- although I'll admit that most of it was centered on the issue of eating pork as, not knowing it was such a hot topic I titled the thread "Why am I eating a Pork Chop. Deeds vs. simply belief in Christ. This one has been and probably will be presented again as both sides of the are supported in the Bible- in fact, you and Saint Steven seem to be revisiting the subject on this thread although SS uses the phrasing grace vs. works. Various denominations- aren't they the result of conflicting views on what God requires?
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Should we talk about this one again?

    Romans 5:18-19
    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
    so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
    19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
    so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    @Hanging by a Thread here's a little trick you can use to alert someone that you mentioned them.

    Type the @ sign and then start typing their username @saint... a popup menu appears and you can select the user you want to alert, like this @Saint Steven
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did Jesus succeed, or fail, at his primary mission? Why was he sent?

    1 John 4:14
    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
     
  11. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Ok, thanks. Are you refering to my mentioning your name in my conversation with @Mark Quayle? Is it protocol to do this when you use someone's name in a conversation. I gather that from your instructions. I hope so, 'cuz I just alerted Mark per your instructions. And if my assumption is wrong then, Mark, sorry to have bothered you.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This should take care of it right here.

    1 Corinthians 15:21-28 NIV
    For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
    23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
    after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's perfect. Yes, I would say it is protocol, or a least polite to do so. But then not everyone knows how. Welcome to the club. - lol

    I always appreciate it when I see someone mentioned me. And if I disagree, I can post a reply.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Show me where the Bible says we are saved by works.
     
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not saying we interpret the word correctly, but the Word does tell us what God requires. However, if it tells us what God plans, much of that is told to us rather cryptically.
     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why should we talk about this one again?
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Just stick a finger tip on a hot stove, see what you think about time. Than sit on some beach---or mountain, whatever your preference---and watch a beautiful sunset see which is preference and see how long you want each. Conjecture and reality can be totally polar opposites.
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Haha, I could have said the same thing. Stick your fingertip on a hot stove --what do you feel? Pain. Shock.

    At that moment, time is not what is on your mind.
     
  19. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with this picture? Jesus is not going to kill you for not letting Him in. I totally hate this picture. God is a devouring fire to the lost---His nature is so pure and intense, sin can not live in His presence. God is like the sun and sin is a drop of water on the surface of that sun. That drop of water has no chance of continuing to live on that sun. What Jesus does is cover us with His shed blood--- He makes us pure enough that the fire of God is not destructive to us---it is comforting and it is the warmth of love.

    Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
    Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
    Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
    Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

    Jesus wants to save us from that eternal 2nd death---to cover us with His purity so we can be in the presence of God---it's not that either of them are going to kill you if you don't let Him in! That's a dumb, stupid, highly offensive, false picture!
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I've had a 3rd degree burn---400 degree oil on my leg. The ER Dr. had no idea what he was doing --he thought it was healing and was even angry I was in the ER! I ended up having to have that burn SHAVED with a razor blade, every day (except week ends) for 3 weeks. What happens is that the burn forms a cement tough outer skin that looks like it is healing, under it, the infection rages on--that outer skin has to be removed. First the area has to go into a warm bath for 30 min---then you get the razor blade. The pain of that will make a tough guy like the Rock collapse in a puddle of tears. I could hear the screams of others as they got their "treatment." You bet time is the only thing you think about. You want it to end. And it doesn't get better with time. As the burn heals from the inside out---the nerves start to come back---the last scraping is actually the worst. I have no desire to continue this line of thinking. That happened 35 years ago----Just the memory of it can still bring me to tears. I have nothing further to say to you----believe whatever you want.
     
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