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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My point #1 that you are referring to was:
    "God's goal is to end up with a world full of people who are like Him in terms of their character. Most importantly, this includes love." (from comment #52)

    The goal IS fulfilled in my view. God DOES end up with a world full of people who are like Him in terms of their character. This is exactly what the New Heavens and New Earth will be like. There will be a vast multitude of redeemed people from every nation who have been transformed so that we are fully Christlike and we will live forever with Him and with each other. That is not "a catastrophic failure to accomplish the intended goal," but an exact and beautiful fulfillment of the intended goal.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Can you just give me the conclusion?
     
  3. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    It does not mean there is no time----it means the saved are not controlled by it anymore. It does not matter. In hell, you better believe time matters!! 1 minute of hell is excruciating pain---an eternity?!! That is unbearable, knowing there is no end of it is beyond comprehension if you've ever even had a small burn. An eternity of bliss is wonderful and you do not want it to end---apples and oranges. The 2 are in no way the same.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    When the needle on the gas gauge in my car points to E, I do not say I have a FULL tank. - lol
     
  5. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    At creation, God, who has no body, made us in His image.

    God is eternal spirit, so to make us in His image would mean that He made us an eternal spirit, then put us in a temporary home, called a mortal body.

    Eternal spirits can’t be destroyed.

    Angels are spirit beings, they can’t be destroyed in the lake of fire, and neither can spirits of humans.
     
  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's a reasonable request!
    At the end of the video itself I give an approximately 5 minute review of the whole video. It starts at 1:37:50. I am going to TRY to include a link to the video in this comment that will automatically start at exactly the correct point. I think the review in the video, which includes some key graphics, is far better than anything I could reproduce in a comment here. Here it is:
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did Jesus die to save us from God?

    What's wrong with this picture?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Our understanding of life after death is not taken from the OT.

    For those in Christ, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-9), where the spirit is either at home in the body or away from it, still in existence, not in ahhihilation.
    There is no annihilation of the spirit in the grave.
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What's to say that the Annihilation that you speak of isn't more akin to this?

    Galatians 2:20 NIV
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Romans 6:8 NIV
    Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

    1 Corinthians 3:11-13 NIV
    For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
     
  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no idea how that statement is relevant to this topic.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    A ghost town is not full, it is empty.
    Incinerate 99.99% of the population and what is left is not full.

    Mark Corbett said:
    My point #1 that you are referring to was:
    "God's goal is to end up with a world full of people who are like Him in terms of their character. Most importantly, this includes love." (from comment #52)

    Saint Steven said:
    When the needle on the gas gauge in my car points to E, I do not say I have a FULL tank. - lol
     
  12. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Steven, we started out well, and I respect you. But now you are saying things about my view that I myself do not believe, nor do I know a single conditionalist who believes that (and I'm blessed to know a lot of evangelical conditionalists). I don't know what percentage of humanity throughout history will be save and what percentage will be lost. But I certainly do not believe that 99.99% will be lost. And I believe that what John saw in his vision is an accurate representation of the vast number of people (likely well over a billion, imho) who will be among the saved:

    ESV Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

    This is not a failure. It is a great achievement that comes at great cost (yes, even great cost to God, who is capable of creating whole planets full of gold and diamonds if He wants, yet He did no redeem us with silver, gold, or diamonds but with the one thing that was truly and deeply costly even to Him).
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clare, I think you misunderstand my view.

    I completely agree that when we die we will be with the Lord (if we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus) while we await the final judgment. Conditional Immortality (aka annihilationism) is NOT a view about what happens in the intermediate state while people are waiting for the resurrection. Conditional Immortality is a view about what happens to the unsaved at final judgment after they have been raised.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you assert.

    How do you know this --because what I conjectured makes no sense to you?

    Also, I said nothing about it ending.
     
  15. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Chad, thanks for interacting with my view of hell.

    Here are a few thoughts in response to your comment:
    1. I agree that we are made in God's image!
    2. Being made in God's image means that we are like Him in many ways, but it does not mean that we are like Him in every way. We are not omnipresent. Sometimes, I wish I was. I could have been with my extended family in the US at the same time that my wife, daughter and myself were living in Indonesia.
    3. No where does the Bible ever say, not once, that all people will live forever and it especially does not say that the unsaved will live forever. In fact, the Bible consistently and repeatedly says that people will have eternal life only IF we meet a condition. That condition is being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus. Everyone else will perish (see John 3:16).
    4. Even if God initially made some beings to live forever, surely you do not believe that God Himself would be incapable of completely destroying them? Wouldn't that call into question God's omnipotence?
    5. Whether or not you agree with points 1-4, how do you explain the Bible using the words apollumi/apoleia over 30 times to refer to the final fate of the unrighteous when apollumi is one of the best words in the Greek language to refer to annihilation (as I carefully document in the video with LOTS of evidence).
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Sorry. Sometimes a reality check can be a bit harsh.

    Sure, what you are thinking about Revelation 7:9 is totally feasible, well over a billion. Consider this...

    The current world population is over 8 billion. So, 1 billion would be only 1/8th of the current world population alive today. One would need to calculate the annual world populations back through time to arrive at the total population since time began. And the population before the Flood may have been higher than the current population. If females became fertile by the time they were 16 years old and people lived hundreds of years, you can imagine the multiples there.

    What percentages are we looking at for the lost? My statement about countless billions seems pretty conservative actually. Imagine the pile of ashes after that many incinerated humans. Mountains.

    Is this what God is up to? This is why I say, "failed plan." There has to be a better way.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, first problem with this picture is that Jesus is not a white European. Second, nobody really knows what He looks like but He would be Jewish (Middle Eastern) in appearance and not a white guy. Three, I believe images like these falls dangerously close to idolatry. For when you tell people to draw a picture of Jesus, they will draw a white European guy in ancient biblical clothing with a beard (When in reality they should never draw His face in detail or imply He is white). The fourth problem with this picture is that there is no mention of the believer's sins and how they are going to be saved from their sins which incur punishment. To leave out sin and jump to God punishing a person is not to have a complete picture of the story. So this picture is not accurate for these above mentioned reasons.

    Side Note:

    My nationality of descent is European.
    My race is white. But that does not mean Jesus is a white European.
    We should not make God in our image.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you for your answer.
    I agree that God will most likely cause some kind of punishment in the Lake of Fire before they perish (Which appears to be implied by the elapse of time passing in Isaiah 66:23). I also believe there is a literal hell, too. But I don't believe it is a torture chamber, but it is a place of torments (or a place no person would want to go to). I believe the rich man was tormented either by the heat of the flame, or he was tormented by an otherworldly flame that is unlike real fire (that would not cause as much intense pain as an earthly fire would). For the rich man was carrying on a normal conversation (Which would not happen if somebody was being engulfed in an earthly flame).

    I also believe in the possibility that the wicked may go through long periods of sleep and be awakened at certain points in time in hell (the place of torments). But this is merely a hopeful conjecture or guess on my part. We do not know for sure. For we look through a glass darkly.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  19. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the five minute review. Maybe one day I'll see the whole thing. Especially liked the ending! Christ be our light! Amen!
     
  20. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Heh-heh. No kidding. "Why" indeed. This situation not only applies to the subject at hand, but rather runs rampant throughout the bible. It makes for good discussion on websites like these, but for me the real issue is why wouldn't God make his requirements/intentions clear to us through the only real source of information we have (the Bible)?
     
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