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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. CatsRule2020

    CatsRule2020 Active Member Supporter

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    Henry Thayer (who was a Materialist) had even enough integrity to present the word (destroy) in Mt.10:28 -as to deliver over to eternal misery.
     
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  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, I have THE happy answer, haha! You are both right and wrong. No, actually, just a thought that might answer both. In Heaven we know time will be no more. Why not hell? Why not no passage of time, but complete payment of infinite sin. Sin is not, after all, finite, being against infinite God.

    Language indicating time without end, I think, is for the sake of human understanding, that these are not released to some better state, nor quite done away with as though they had never existed, but simply in a state we at present cannot understand. A similar state, I think, is referred to for our sakes as sleep, in death, before judgement, yet it can also be said, 'Today you will be with me in paradise'. I see no reason to think Adam will show up in Heaven any sooner than I will.

    So these in the Lake of Fire undergo complete justice, neither for a long time, nor for a limited time. I can see that as what happened to Christ, so that the whole of the penalty of the Redeemed was laid on him, and was paid at his death, yet I have seen no indication that he is in any sense 'still there'. Time irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  3. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

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    Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    2 Thes 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Sodom & Gomorrha were quickly destroyed by fire & brimstone from heaven. They aren't still burning yet, they were forever lost.
     
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  4. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    And since we are triune beings comprised of body, soul, and spirit, that leaves our spirit.

    Spirits can’t be destroyed - that’s why annihilationism is erroneous.

    Shalom.
     
  5. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    Physically destroyed. Their spirits are in hell.
     
  6. Joseph Rico

    Joseph Rico New Member

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    I don't think we can attach/hang so much on a single word. Not saying word studies are helpful, but just an analysis/word study on απολλυμι is not enough to solve theological issues.
     
  7. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Ah there's the angelic gospel, thrice holy, glad tidings of great joy for all mankind: most of yous is gunna fry real good!

    Imagine going through Christian life saddled with that toxic junk. Theologians like David Bentley Hart just can't get over the vicious stupidity of such blasphemous doctrines of demons.
     
  8. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Chad, first, the Bible often uses the words "spirit" and "soul" interchangeably to refer to the non-physical part of people. The phrase "both soul and body" in Matthew 10:28 simply refers to the whole person.

    Second, you can believe that only spirits of the unsaved will remain in hell, but if you do believe that you can no longer claim (if you ever did) that you hold the view of the majority of Christian in church history. You will be joining me in terms of holding a minority view, although a view that is much different from mine.

    Third, and perhaps most important, there is zero biblical support for the claim "Spirits can't be destroyed." Now, if you meant that we cannot destroy (in the ultimate sense) a person's spirit, I would agree. But certainly God can destroy a person's spirit. Are you actually claiming that God is not capable of destroying spirits which He creates? That would seem to call into questions God's omnipotence.
     
  9. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Joseph, that is a legitimate point in and of itself. I do not intend for a word study of apollumi to be the only evidence considered in the debate over the nature of hell. I think it is one very important piece of evidence since apollumi/apoleia are used in over 30 verses in the NT to refer to the final fate of the unsaved. Still, other evidence must be examined as well. In this (much shorter, just 10 minutes) video I give a quick overview of the different types of biblical evidence that have led me to believe in annihilationism instead of eternal torment:

     
  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thayer does give that meaning for apollumi, but I can't see where he gives evidence to support that meaning. I give LOTS of evidence for my own analysis of apollumi. I hope you will consider watching the video, even though it is long. I honestly believe, and sincerely pray, that it will be worth your time.
     
  11. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    Another great verse.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    A bit of context for anyone not aware that there are three biblically supported views of the final judgement:
    1) Damnationism (the standard dogma)
    2) Annihilationism (promoted in this topic)
    2) Ultimate Redemption (UR)
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are indeed 3 major views of final judgment among Christians. Since I believe the Bible is entirely true, and since only one of these views can be true (they logically contradict one another), I would not say that there are "three biblically supported views." The meaning of apollumi should be a key factor (though not the only factor) in determining which view is correct.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Per Wikipedia -- Damnationism - Wikipedia

    Damnationism
    (damnation+-ism) may refer to:

    I get the impression you can make your own list, using disparaging terms, instead of using the terms of those who use Scripture to support their thesis.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for launching this topic. Interesting subject.

    Yes, I am familiar with that typical stance of those who would choose one view over another. However, if you ask proponents of any of these views for a biblical defense, they can provided it. Just as you are doing with Annihilationism.

    And to be clear, divisions between these three biblical positions have their roots in the early church. (see citation below) These debates have been going on for millennia. I don't say this to discourage more discussion. I believe we should continue.

    However, to take the mindset that only one view can be biblical is a mistake from my perspective. The Bible does in fact support all three views. The real question is, "Why?"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
    by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
    German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

    "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
     
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  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    As I said, all three views are supported biblically. And I didn't make this up. It is common knowledge. See unbiased video presentation below.

    Do you prefer a different term for Damnationism? Let's see it.


    Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg
     
  17. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    It really is key, I agree. And again, I think when we take the bible as a whole, it's obvious that the soul that sinneth will die, the wages of sin is death, etc.

    John 3:16 -one of the most popular verses out there declares it as well.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree that the word “apollymi” means destruction. I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality.” However, my biggest hang up with Annihilationism (or Conditional Immortality) when I first heard about it was the “Traditional Conditional Immortality” viewpoint.

    Traditional Conditional Immortality:

    Lake of Fire:

    This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical. So when I refer to “Conditional Immortality” in a positive way, or when I refer to “Conditional Immortality verses” in support of my view of God’s punishment of the wicked, I am referring only to the Lake of Fire teaching portion only. For I do not hold to the Conditional Immortality Proponent’s viewpoint on hell.

    Hell:

    Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents believe that hell is just a metaphor, and they believe in a teaching called “soul sleep” (i.e. that the wicked will not know anything and sleep or not be aware of anything until the Judgment). I do not find their view on soul sleep to be biblical. Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents also believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is just a fictional story used to teach a spiritual truth or lesson. However, I do not believe this view of hell is biblical.​

    Dualistic Conditional Immortality:

    Lake of Fire:

    This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical.

    Hell:

    Dualistic Conditional Immortality Proponents believe hell is a very real and literal place. There are differing views among these types of believers on how hell is portrayed, but they all believe hell is literally real, and it is a place that no person would desire to be. It is a place of torments (Just as Scripture says). Some who hold to this view believe that hell is similar to that of the view portrayed in the Eternal Torment. They believe it is a place where the wicked are being burned in flames (tortured), and they are screaming from the pain of the flames, etc.; Others (like myself) believe that the rich man was not tormented by an intense earthly flame (that would cause great pain), but he was tormented by the heat of the flame near him, or he was tormented by an otherworldly flame that did not cause him to scream uncontrollably (like an earthly flame would do).​

    Eternal Conscious Torment:

    Lake of Fire:

    This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked will burn alive and be tortured in the flames of the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Many have refused to come to the faith because they had a hard time accepting that God would torture people alive in flames for all eternity. It may surprise the reader that there is actually a very small number of verses that support the Eternal Torment view of the Lake of Fire (5 major ones to be exact, and there are a ton of verses in support of the wicked being annihilated as their final fate). With the exception of the Greek philosopher Epicureans, Greek philosophers (Such as Plato) generally taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.

    Hell:

    The Eternal Conscious Torment View appears to teach that hell is a place of extreme torture where the wicked scream uncontrollably from the pain of being burned by the flames of hell. This appears to be the popular view in both churches and in secular movies in Hollywood. Churches have even reenacted this fictitious terrifying version of hell in this manner on Halloween calling them, “hell houses.” (satisfying people’s cravings to be afraid on Halloween with haunted houses; In my opinion, hell houses are a reenactment or imitation of pure evil that simply attempts to copy haunted houses which attempt to cater to the same wrong desires of this world). However, the biggest problem of Eternal Conscious Torment is that it maligns the character of God in that He tortures people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. God is love (1 John 4:8). God is good (Matthew 19:17) (John 10:11) (John 20:29). God is into fair justice. For it is written:

    “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” (Luke 12:47-48).

    Side Note:

    If anyone is interested, here is my Biblical Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

    A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I watched a bit of your video, which is well done, by the way, and I have a question straight away. What is your understanding of death? (and life for that matter)

    My understanding is that there are two kinds of each: (physical and spiritual)
    1) Physical life and physical death
    2) Spiritual death and spiritual life
    (both given in the order they are received)
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    @Mark Corbett --- Therefore, in Annihilationism, which kind of death are we referring to? (physical or spiritual) What do the texts reveal in this regard? Thanks.
     
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