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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What I do with the Bible is only a distortion to the blind.
     
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You do like to change words around! I said "Some he chose for a particular purpose". I did not imply there were others he didn't choose for a particular purpose, only that they were not chosen for that one particular use that the Elect are chosen for.

    Anyhow, those that are not Elect, are not shown the mercy that the Elect are shown: Regeneration. UNEARNED. Unrequested. Grace.

    They do receive punishment for their sin --not punishment for not being given mercy. You keep misrepresenting the facts.
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you only distort the words of those you attempt to best in arguments? << (see what I did there?)
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Sounds like a lot of double talk to me.
     
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Been saying the same thing from the beginning. It seems plain to me that you are like the Arminians, interpreting Scripture from the POV that humanity is worthy of some respect from God on their own, aside from God's use and assessment of the individual. God owes us nothing.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Sounds like absent father syndrome to me. Deadbeat Dad.
     
  7. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Revelation 21:8: Unbelievers consigned to the LoF. The nations are persistent unbelievers throughout scripture (since Noah parked the ark), yes? But then, miraculously, Revelation 21:24 - return of the nations - and subdued unto Christ, repentant and worshipful. Emerged from the fire, behold the nations made ANEW! Good news? But wait, there's more...Revelation 22:2 - let the national work of healing begin!

    Those plurry nations, what did they do to deserve salvation? Absolutely nothing, it was a free gift of grace. But to enter the City - they do have to overcome in the LoF by the blood of the Lamb, and with the encouragement of the Spirit and the bride.

    That's the super-mikveh treatment, just as the Jews got baptised in the Red Sea crossing, just as our long-term ill whining buddy got cured at the Pool of Bethesda.

    Praise the Lord, for He can turn rotten flesh into gold refined by fire.
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I watched some more of your video. I think you make a good case for the definition of apollumi. My question is about what it is applied to.

    Your primary opponent in this discussion has been the Damnationists that believe in a forever burning hell. And their argument would perhaps be about the duration of apollumi.

    Those who believe in Ultimate Redemption would question what apollumi is applied to. And this raises a question with one of your primary texts. See the comparison below.

    Whereas, Matthew 10:28 names the body and soul of the individual, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 indicates a third aspect of the individual, the spirit, which is not mentioned in Matthew 10:28. And this once again raises the question of life and death, both physical and spiritual.

    Matthew 10:28 NIV
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    We should stop evangelizing, trying to persuade people to people who are sinning to believe in Jesus. Instead we should tell everyone it does not matter how you live; steal, rob, kill etc. because everyone will be saved no matter what.
    How do we know because Shrewd Manager told us that in Rev 21:24 and Rev 22:2. every one will be saved righteous and unrighteous unlike, no matter what.
    .....But let us read Rev. 21:24.

    Revelation 21:24
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    Note this vs. does NOT say all mankind will enter the heavenly city. This vs. says, "the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it [the city." Note NOT all mankind but only "them who are saved." If all mankind were saved John would not have added "them which are saved."
    .....All mankind were supposed to be saved in Rev 21:24 but in chap. 22 there are still filthy and unjust people around. God does not say they are saved but let them be unjust and filthy still.

    Revelation 22:11
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    In the next vs. Jesus said,
    Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    Is Jesus going to reward the filthy and unjust with eternal life?
    Although all mankind was supposedly saved in chap. 21 there are still dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars. outside the city and God said let them remain as they are.

    Revelation 22:15
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Revelation 22:18-19
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Although all mankind was supposedly saved God is still warning people not to do wrong things.

     
  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks. I'm far from the first to make the case, although I may have made it in a bit more detail than most.

    A few thoughts:
    1. It seems that sometimes "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably in the Bible. It's not at all clear that it is accurate to think of us having 3 distinct parts which could live and be conscious apart from each other.
    2. "body, soul, and spirit" might simply be a way of saying "all of you." This might be similar to other phrases:

    CSB17 Matthew 22:37 He said to him, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

    In Matthew 22:37, Jesus mentions our hearts, souls, and minds. That doesn't mean that our hearts, souls, and minds are three distinct parts of us that could live independently of each other. Or, would it be five parts when we add in our spirits and bodies? In fact, since Jesus does not mention "spirit" or "body" in Matthew 22:27, should we think that we don't need to love God with those parts of us? Of course, not. It's just a way of saying "all of you," but saying it more beautifully. Likewise, in Matthew 10:28, Jesus is saying that God can destroy "all of us," including both physical and non-physical parts of us. At least, that's how I see it.

    3. The Greeks sometimes used apollumi to describe the complete end of ALL parts of a person after death.

    4. Many times apollumi is simply applied to the ungodly or unrighteous or people who do not repent. The Bible normally looks at people simply as whole people, and not as "parts." Although there are a handful of verses that do not fit this trend, like Matthew 10:28. But when apollumi is applied to people in general, there is no reason at all, and nothing in the context, to indicate that some part of the person will remain that is conscious.
     
  11. Hanging by a Thread

    Hanging by a Thread Member

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    Leviticus and Deutoronomy say that kid should be stoned to death.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply.

    I have wrestled to understand this over the years and have arrived at a way of looking at it.

    1) Body = the physical part of us that will perish
    2) Spirit = the part of us that will live on after the body dies (our spiritual body)
    3) Soul = the individuality of us as a person that also lives on after our body perishes

    And I would say that the soul, as I am defining it, is our mind. (which carries our individuality) Imagine this. If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? - lol

    Like the data on the biological hard drive we call our brain. Those who have experienced NDEs report mind activity outside the physical brain. As if they are floating above their own body while doctors work to resuscitate them.

    So, at the end of this physical life, we leave our physical body and our soul inhabits our spiritual body. Corruptible to incorruptible.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    @Mark Corbett --- I suppose I should either explain this better or push a bit harder on it.

    I don't question your definition of apollumi as much as what it is applied to. Your Damnationist opponents probably question the duration of application. Taking a position of hell as eternal death.

    Since my view of the final judgment is one of Ultimate Redemption I see it as a death to the part of us that needs remedy. Which happens to the believer in this lifetime. And needs to happen to the unbeliever in the next life.

    Mark 9:49
    Everyone will be salted with fire.

    Malachi 3:2
    But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
     
  14. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since Jesus indicates the soul will be destroyed (apollumi-ed), if the soul is the mind, wouldn't that pretty much be the end of us?

    CSB17 Matthew 10:28 Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Perhaps this is where the definitions become more important. Is the soul all that is left in the afterlife? And is there a figurative sense to death that relates to our spiritual self?

    As the saying goes: "Perish the thought." Change of heart, change of mind.

    Galatians 2:20 NIV
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Romans 14:9 NIV
    For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 NIV
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    Saint Steven said:
    And I would say that the soul, as I am defining it, is our mind. (which carries our individuality) Imagine this. If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? - lol
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here are a couple of posts of mine from another topic that really challenge our understanding of life and death. cc: @Mark Corbett


    Here's another facet of this. To make matters even MORE challenging.

    Luke 20:37-39 NIV
    But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
    39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”


    On the same subject... Here is an interesting interchange between Martha and Jesus concerning Lazarus.

    John 11:23-27 NIV
    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
    24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
    26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
    27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Does that one verse really render void ALL of the other verses of scripture that make annihilation impossible?

    Strange that so vital a point would be found in only one place as not even the main point of the verse.
     
  18. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain exactly how that can happen? I'm assuming by "next life" you are referring to their time in the Lake of Fire. So how does that work when they are separated from God?
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, which supports Annihilationism in the Lake of Fire, and not Eternal Conscious Torment. The child was not said to be tortured alive the rest of their life in a horrible way.
     
  20. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Thank you, but all credit to God, my friend.

    I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor 5:5)

    Ah, but you've found a naughty and unsustainable addition to the words of Rev 21:24, namely 'of them which are saved'. These words do not appear in credible translations, easily proved by the fact the devil failed to cover his tracks by making the necessary consequential amendments to Revelation 15:4.

    By no means! But he will save them. God will 'pick up the spares' in due course. That's why He proclaims 'Behold, I am making everything new!' The process continues, the winching in of the net full of fishies darting hither and thither. Who will prevail?

    Correct, there is the possibility of some being left outside, a-wailing and a-gnashing as it were. God tells us straight - clean up or stay out. But the ever-open Pearly Gates in Revelation 21:25 and the standing invitation in Revelation 22:17 positivise this to 'Stay out until you clean up.' And when you do, then the healing and the reward of water of life and a ticket to heaven.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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