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apollumi: the Word that Tells us What Happens to People in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 1, 2021.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While Jesus did come to give us a new life, He also came to give us eternal life.

    “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (John 11:26).

    “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10).
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) requires the most spiritualization (or metaphorical interpretation) of scripture, with words such as:

    1. perish
    2. death
    3. die
    4. destruction
    5. consumed by fire
    6. second death
    7. carcases

    In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit ECT.

    Conditional Immortality has the least amount of spiritualization of figurative expressions within scripture, such as:

    1. their worm will not die
    2. the smoke of their torment will go up forever (Isaiah 34:10 Which also describes a place)
    3. unquenchable fire

    In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the conditional viewpoint.

    Also, In Isaiah 66:22-24 the usage of the phrases "the worm will not die" and the "the unquenchable fire" is said to involve the carcases of men being viewed by the saints (or those who have received eternal life). The fact that the saints are viewing the ongoing empty (soulless) remains (or carcases) of dead bodies could very well be a testament to the saints and the eternal life they continue to have.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Conditional Immortality Verses on Receiving Immortality:
    Immortality (everlasting life) is not something mankind automatically has. The majority of Greek philosophers were wrong. Immortality can only be had by partaking of the tree of life, or by the gospel (Which are things that give us access to Jesus), and or directly by Jesus Christ Himself.

    “...he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 HCSB).

    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:12).

    Jesus says,
    “...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10).

    Jesus says,
    I am the way, the truth, and the life:” (John 14:6).

    "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever" (John 6:51).

    “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” (2 Timothy 1:10).

    “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:11-13)

    To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:” (Romans 2:7).
    Note on Romans 2:7: Why should we seek immortality or eternal life if every man and woman is inherently immortal already? It doesn’t make any sense.


    Some Conditional Immortality Verses That Sums Up The Truth on Both Life & Death Nicely:

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).

    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23).

    And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever” (1 John 2:17).
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The End of the Wicked is Annihilation:
    (Verses taken from the King James Bible):

    Wicked shall be destroyed:


    Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him:
    but all the wicked will he destroy.
    Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land;
    that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.
    Psalms 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together:
    the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass,
    and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish;
    it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
    Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed:
    but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
    Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright:
    but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
    Hosea 7:13 Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me.
    Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
    2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

    They shall perish:

    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish,
    and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs:
    they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    Psalms 1:6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous:
    but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
    Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished,
    and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
    Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.​

    The wicked shall be burnt up:

    Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,​

    The wicked will be consumed:

    Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.​

    The wicked will be devoured:

    Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
    Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Nahum 1:9-10 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.​

    The wicked are compared to combustible materials:

    Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Nahum 1:9-10 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
    Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

    The wicked shall die:

    James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
    Proverbs 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; but he that despiseth his ways shall die.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Wicked Shall Be No More:

    Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.​
     
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  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Real World Example (or Parable) in Defense of Conditional Immortality:

    Jesus many times used parables or real world examples to illustrate or parallel spiritual truth. Eternal Torment cannot be made into a real world example so as to defend fair justice. For example: If a family entered a country whereby their child had lied, or stolen some bread, etc. and the authorities caught them and decided to torture their child for the rest of his or her life in a very cruel way over such a crime, we would think that such a punishment would not fit the crime and or be fair. We would think it would be unfair justice if such a thing took place today in our real world. Now, how can God be any less fair and just? God sends rain on the righteous, and the unrighteous. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Can we really say that “God is good” and yet He can also torture a wicked person for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes they committed in their life? Even our own justice system teaches us about fair justice and these principles can be found even in the Old Testament Law of Moses (Which of course is not a binding contract or covenant for the believer today, but certain laws can be good, useful, or beneficial for the believer today who is under the New Covenant, or New Testament).
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Conditional Immortality Verses on the Destruction of the Devil & Death:


    The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:


    A. Destruction of the Devil:


    Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

    12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
    19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

    Ezekiel 28:12-18

    12 “...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”​

    B. Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

    1 Corinthians 15:26

    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death
    Now, stop and think about this for a moment. If the last enemy is destroyed (i.e. death), it's logical to assume that all other previous enemies of God will be destroyed, too. This means all the wicked will be destroyed or ruined or put to death. In fact, it's called the SECOND DEATH (Which is parallel to the first death). You cannot call it the “second death” unless it is related in some way to the first death (physical death).
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does it take to get, where? Relationship with Christ? Regeneration.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    One more thing I would like to add:

    Keep in mind, I believe in a literal hell. I believe the story of the Richman and Lazarus is 100% real and literal. But the Bible makes it abundantly clear that the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire!
     
  10. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does it take to get, where? Relationship with Christ? Regeneration. Saved? Substitution of Christ on your behalf.
     
  11. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Once consigned to the lake of fire? No mercy, unless by mercy you are referring to the common mercy that God presently restrains every person from doing the worst their nature and the devil would have had them to do, and so their punishment would have been that much worse.

    Why would God have mercy when they never deserved it to begin with? Nor did we.

    Is there something in Scripture to hint at God having mercy on those he consigned to the Lake of Fire?
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's a pretty dim view of those created in the image (likeness) of God.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Mark 9:49
    Everyone will be salted with fire.

    Malachi 3:2
    But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Actually, I think @Shrewd Manager would be the person to answer this one. Something from the end of Revelations, I believe. (go get 'em tiger)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is what he said. We are/were enemies of God. But some of us he made for one use, some for another. Some he chose for a particular purpose, to those, he showed mercy --if he hadn't, we would still be like the others.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What sort of a god would predestine humans to an age of conscious torment as a punishment for not being called to be saved? And justify it by calling them enemies. Wow.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Have you forgotten so soon? They are punished for their sins. Where do you get the notion they are punished for not being called?

    The Elect also would have been punished for their sins, if not for the mercy of God.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    From you, actually.

    Mark Quayle said:
    It is what he said. We are/were enemies of God. But some of us he made for one use, some for another. Some he chose for a particular purpose, to those, he showed mercy --if he hadn't, we would still be like the others.
     
  19. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. Still like the others --punished for their sin. Where in there do I say they are punished for not being shown mercy? Do you distort the Bible this way too?
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Well... those he didn't choose for a particular purpose received what? Mercy or punishment?

    Mark Quayle said:
    It is what he said. We are/were enemies of God. But some of us he made for one use, some for another. Some he chose for a particular purpose, to those, he showed mercy --if he hadn't, we would still be like the others.
     
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